Just in: US hostage in Saudi Arabia has been executed

[tabs]

I'm not speaking about vengence, or revenge...I am talking about how do you handle the problem of dealing with a group of people who are NOT REASONABLE by any standards except their own.

Sooner or later the West meaning Liberal Americans and Europe is either going to wake up to that fact or they are going to be living in poverty or dead. Poverty because the Western Economys will collaspe due to loss of control of the strategic source of fuel and inaction in response to a catastropic Terrorist attack.

My question is how do you deal with a group whose goal is to expunge the very ideals (Secularism) that the West holds dear and whose singlemindedness is unwaverable in achieing that goal?

[Leader]

How anyone can view today's events and still support "playing by the rules" is difficult for me to understand. I am ready for my country to use its superior technology and firepower to eliminate those who seek to bring chaos to the world. And I don't particularly care how it's accomplished. Why we cling to "the rules" of civilized nations in the face of such barbaric attacks is a mystery. If the French, the Germans, and the Spaniards protest - tough! We need to grant the wishes of those who are willing to die for their twisted cause...and if innocents standing near them are killed, too, we're sorry, but it couldn't be helped.
At the risk of sounding like a nutjob, I think the future of civilization is at stake.

[tabs]

The only people who believe that man is any way Civilized is a Liberal. In reality Civilization is a thin veneer that masks the darker more brutish side of mankind. That is not to say we should not strive for our better nature but we must keep in mind that there is a darker side. Further we must not be in denial that that side of mankind exists and has to be dealt with. If anyone doubts my point of view lets just take a simple look at the rate of domestic violence in America (for example).

[tabs]

The Jihady thinks of our "Rules" as being a weakness...

[tabs]

The Jihady believes that the Western Secularism brings chaos and corruption to the world...it is by following the true Islamic faith that he seeks to bring justice and order to the world.

[Moneyguy1]

Tabs..

Well put. I am, for one, kind of glad my years on this globe are damn near over. Watching events over the past few decadess has made me realize that the future may be bleaker for our descendents than I can ever imagine.

Civilization is just a veneer; a coat of paint, and it is beginnig to wear thin is places, permitting the elements in to do their dirty work.

I will continue to enjoy life, and to work toward making things better, but at the same time, I will not be unhappy in a few years to bid adieu to this sad little planet.

[tabs]

I don't think the World is in any worse shape than it was 50 or a 100 years ago. We certainly have more information, we get the attrocities dished up on the evening news live. We also have more of a destructive potential now with the advent of technology...Nuclear Weapons.

On the bright side here..man has had a major showdown where 2 realitivily reasonable sides didn't resort to the use of these weapons for over 50 years. Also to this point in time NO NATION STATE OR GROUP has resorted to the use of those weapons except the USA in ending WW2.

What now is in the mix is a Civilization/Religion whose problems are boiling over after the Cold War Years of being contained. This containment was due to the stakes being so high during the Cold War.

Mohamed Atta would have loved to have been nothing more than a Civil Engineer in Egypt. Yet that goal was unattainiable for him, and after living in Germany which due to his upbringing he considered to be a promiscious society he reverted to what he considered to be the true faith of fundlementalist Islam... after which his radicaliam brought him to the WTC.

My point of view is that Civilizations rise and fall over periods of time. It is at this point in time that Western Civilization is at a point of threat and vunerabilty. Most people can't conceive of the idea that there can be NO USA tommorow. To postulate maybe with the rapid speed of communications what would take centuries to happen (the fall of the Roman Empire) it might now be overnight. Allthough there have been civilzations that have fallen in relativily short time...Greek Repblics etc.

[concentric]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Tabs..

Well put. I am, for one, kind of glad my years on this globe are damn near over. Watching events over the past few decadess has made me realize that the future may be bleaker for our descendents than I can ever imagine.

Civilization is just a veneer; a coat of paint, and it is beginnig to wear thin is places, permitting the elements in to do their dirty work.

I will continue to enjoy life, and to work toward making things better, but at the same time, I will not be unhappy in a few years to bid adieu to this sad little planet.

I'd go even further than that... Civilization has never existed. Most people in the world continue to live in hunger and poverty, people kill each other every day in completely horrible ways, and most of the major power structures we've constructed are either at war with each other (don't think that the US, Europe, Russio-China, and any of the large economic blocks will ever actually be allies) or are experiencing prosperity at the expense of others. MOST of the technological innovation of the 20th Century is derived from military technology, where we've chosen as a society to develop weapons that we clearly don't have the wisdom to distribute, use or dispose of properly.

We maintain structures simply because most of our training, roles, and information is being disseminated by organizations that benefit from our adherence to the status quo, not because it's our natural tendency to behave in that manner.

I am NEVER having children, mostly because I feel screwed already and don't want them to have to bear the brunt of the rash of poor choices that seem to be headed down the pike. I'll be lucky to see the twilight of my own life in comfort.

JCM

[RickM]

Originally posted by LynnsABCs
Tab The Magnificient One:

That's some pretty deep and articulate writing today. I apologize for anything mean I might have said in the past about you on this BBS. Reading Mull's posts puts you in a whole new light.

On that note....have a great week guys. I'm off to Cape Cod, MA for a week of relaxation.

God bless America....and all who defend it.

[tabs]

Thank You Lynn

What man has to remember is his capacity to love....while acknowledging his dark side. It is through acknowledging and taking responsibilty for our dark side that we can transcend it's bonds.

[Pragmatique]

We killed 9 Iraqi children in one day when one of our missles hit a village where they were playing. The Arabs see that action, and countless others like it, as American terrorism. Americans seem to think that only other countries commit terrorism, but not the good old USA. We need new leadership to set a much different tone for our foreign policy.

[singpilot]

Statements like that make me realize how much trouble this country is in.

[singpilot]

Statement from AlQuieda:

We killed 2,338 innocent American children in one day when one of our martyrs hit a building where they were working. The Americans see that action, and countless others like it, as Arab terrorism. Americans seem to think that only other countries commit terrorism, but not the good people of Saudi Arabia. We are counting on new leadership after our election bombing in the good old USA to set a much different tone for their foreign policy.

[tabs]

New Leadership will be bound to conducting things in the same ole way. It is the way the "SYSTEM" works.

The USA is defending the Status Quo, after 911 most all countries saw that the status quo was preferable to the alternative...Syria, Libya even Iran. Sadam was one of the only ones to hearld the 911 attack as being praise worthy.

The only thing our Allies dislike is that the USA under Bush isn't engaging in foreplay before we twist arms... and get our way.

[tabs]

Neither side has a monopoly on being virtious, and both sides see themselves as being the virtious party, while the other is demonized.

[concentric]

Originally posted by LynnsABCs
JCM:

With Father's Day Sunday, taking the risk of having children in today's world is well worth the risk. (I'm the dad, BTW.)

Lynn:

That's truly awesome, and I support your decision to raise kids and experience the life changes that come from having children. I just don't happen to feel that way myself, at this point in my life.

I see myself as "Uncle Jason" more than a dad.

However, I have a great relationship with my Dad and really appreciate how meaningful family can be.

Jason

[Pragmatique]

Well, militancy will be met with militancy. We're a mighty power for sure, but, totally dependent on mid-east oil. Our military power will dry up when the oil dries up. The whole world knows this. The notion that we can defeat the whole world because we have the military power to do so is a prescription for defeat. We are being slowly defeated right now by our leadership's short-sighted jingoistic approach to the world's problems. Consider this: All the losses we've suffered so far in the war on terrorism amount to trillions of dollars, and many, many, lives. And what have the terrorists lost? Nineteen guys with box cutters for sure, a few more radicals in Afghanistan and Iraq, plus some munitions we sold to them, and that's about it. Score: America well behind and lossing ground fast.

[on-ramp]

Originally posted by Pragmatique
We killed 9 Iraqi children in one day when one of our missles hit a village where they were playing. The Arabs see that action, and countless others like it, as American terrorism. Americans seem to think that only other countries commit terrorism, but not the good old USA. We need new leadership to set a much different tone for our foreign policy.

true,
every time something like this happens, Bush needs to look in the mirror for answers.
His illegal pre-emptive war over non-existence phantom imminent threats has so far killed over 2000 innocent Iraqi men/women and childred and about 700 people serving in the US military. He has sent these men/women to their graves. people like you and me. Clinton was bad, but not this bad.

Paul Johnson (and others) would be alive today if it wasn't for the gun slinging Texas cowboy who thinks he can bring peace/freedom to the world by invading nations. i lose respect for the man every day that goes by.

besides, what ever happened to "we will go after countries that harbor terrorists", most hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.

[350HP930]

Originally posted by singpilot
Lets reverse the situation for a second.

Lets fly in Tomahawk and destroy the big ****** rock in Mecca that is as
important to them as the twin towers were for us. If we happen to take out 2386 citizens while we do that... oops. So Solly.

Sokay, hows that feel?

I say it feels good. I am tired of this s#it.

With an attitude like that I hope they pull your pilot's licence before you get some bug up your ass one day and try to create your own little 9/11 by flying the plane into some muslim target somewhere.

This nature of this thread reminds me that its just not the backward countries of the world where morons get so pissed off at the injustices, crimes and corruption they see around them that they want to use it commit violence against other innocent civilians of the world.

All terrorists and their sympathisers of the world are the suck. That also applies to american rednecks that would like to see massive terrorism committed against the innocent civilians of the world just because they now feel wronged. With such a mindset you would would think they would be more supportive of other terrorists' actions.

And to the person who suggests that we follow the israeli method of dealing with occupied territories and terrorists, what a dumb move that would be.

They have been pulling that **** for almost 50 years and life for palestinians and their occupiers has only gotten worse. The US does not need to share in that theocracy's stupidity.

[tabs]

The System is acting in the way it knows how to. Leadership is restricted by the limitations of the System.

As the Shadow Minister of Defense to the UK said before Parliment after 911. "The USA has been the guarntor of Global Security for 50 years. If the USA fails to act then Global Security will fail."

The alternative to not spending those Trillions and spending those lives is the abyss of Western Civilization (our Secular way of doing business)

The rock that Terrorism threw (911) in reality is inconsequential, it is the ripple that it has caused in our way of doing business that is of grave concern.