What Exactly Is Kerry's Platform?

[Moneyguy1]

I all due respect to the Professor (I also have an advanced degree in Economics....Big Deal), his argument is sheer propaganda and any true financial person would dismiss it out of hand. I would not even dignify it by tearing it apart; it falls of its own weight.

What the argument does not take into account is the net spendable portion of each diner. Plain and simple.

[Rot 911]

Is it really too much to ask to ask the bashers/flamers to withhold comment in ONE thread? It's not like you don't have 20 other threads to participate in. THIS THREAD is to give the Kerry supporters an opportunity to at least educate ME as to what his plan for America is. So at least in THIS THREAD could you please corral your urge to comment unless it is on point?

[Moneyguy1]

Hey Kurt..

I thought I did......

Although not supporting either candidate openly, I tried to point out that there are reasons that some items are more or less "off the table" for a little while. Or should be.

[bbq_duck]

ok.. sorry.. i will wait to see what kerry's supporters believe his plan to be.. i'm interested too... sorry again

[lendaddy]

To be honest Kurt I just get the e-mail that says someone responded to a post I made. When I click the link it takes me directly to that reply and I simply respond to it without seeing the title of the thread. Sorry I will pay special attention to this one, I normally don't look at the title.

[Superman]

Right now the President is trying to hang himself and Kerry is staying out of his way. Heck Kerry likely will win this election even if he does nothing except give voters a reasonable alternative to the status quo.

And BTW, Yankee has outlined very clearly why tax cuts for rich people do nothing to stimulate anybody's economy except the rich guy. It might make capital cheaper because it makes it more abundant. But the tax cuts that really matter are the ones that allow a family to replace that sagging mattress in the kid's room.

Now you can ignore payroll taxes and give me some lame story about a meal paid for entirely by a rich guy but, as Moneyguy points out, if that was written by an actual economist, then there was a deliberate intent to deceive and the story's target audience is ignorant people. It's a suckers' story.

And BTW, Moneyguy, my hat's off to anyone who has earned a degree, particularly an advanced degree, in economics. That can be tough stuff and mental calisthenics are mandatory in that field of study.

[Moneyguy1]

Yeah..got one in mechanical engineering too...

That and a buck just might get me a cup of coffee.....

But, I would do it all over again....

The combo did allow me to semi-retire with some dignity.

It was interesting, though. Got the engineering degree, went into aerospace, got dumped out of projects three times in two years, rehired, no security. Went back to night school, looked around, went to work for local govt and ran a pt real estate business. Got to the point where I would take a bit of security over the glory of rocket building...

How does this fit into the thread subject? Although a long time ago to many of you guys, it was during the same kind of international unrest and division as today. Employment differed from area to area, some areas were in good shape, my old home town of Rochester NY was beginning a long downward spiral with companies large and small either failing or moving away. Pfaudlers, Graflex, Stromberg Carlson, Wollensak, and the machine shops/small business that supplied them. I see it again, and it depends on where you are located and what you are involved in whether or not you see the economy as growing, stagnant, or even in decline. Most of us tend to be regional in our thinking.

In order to survive, I had to relocate.

Additionally, the current economic news is not good for future planning. Personal savings/investment has fallen to 2.2%, the lowest I can ever remember, and personal debt is at or near an all time high. Many folks figure, with interest rates still low, it is a good time to hock the family jewels, so things are bought on time. Many work from payday to payday, hoping that nuthin bad happens.


Some interesting definitions:

Recession: When your neighbor is out of work

Depression: When you are out of work

[araine901]

Tech:

This is from the Kerry website.



Restoring Jobs and Rebuilding Our Economy
George W Bush has chosen tax cuts for the wealthy and special favors for the special interests over our economic future. John Kerry’s priority will be middle class families who are working hard to cover the mortgage, pay the high cost of health care, child care and tuition, or just trying to get ahead.

The first thing John Kerry will do is fight his heart out to bring back the three million jobs that have been lost under George W. Bush. He will fight to restore the jobs lost under Bush in the first 500 days of his administration. Kerry has proposed creating jobs through a new manufacturing jobs credit, by investing in new energy industries, restoring technology, and stopping layoffs in education.

John Kerry has a plan to secure America’s economic future and ensure that workers can achieve the American dream in our changing economy. John Kerry has the courage to roll back Bush’s tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans so we can invest in education and healthcare. He isn’t afraid to crack down on corporations that are hiding their money in Bermuda to avoid paying their fair share and will end special tax giveaways to companies that ship jobs abroad. And he will defend the rights of workers, consumers and shareholders in holding corporations accountable for their actions.

this is his "plan". I need help understanding how rolling back the tax cuts, taking more from the business is going to create 10 Million jobs. That is the extent of his plan posted on his website. Am I missing somthing?

[john70t]

Positively, definitively, no questioning, without-a-doubt mabye.

[campbellcj]

Honestly, I think that in recent years our political "system" has degenerated well-beyond issue-based platforms or any other such objective sensibilities.

From what I can tell, as a relatively "non-political" outsider, is that most folks seem to vote the party-line -- as ingrained by their environment and social circumstances (i.e., family and peer influence).

I would absolutely LOVE to have a race -- someday -- where it were a really tough choice between the candidates, and not because they are both undesirable and disconnected, barely-qualified, ass-kissing bureaucrats, but rather because they were both (or ALL in the ideal case) qualified, enlightened, compassionate and truly representative candidates.

[Mulholland]

Tax cuts stimulate the economy. I doesn't get any more simple than that. You don't pay taxes, you don't get a tax cut. Those people who pay taxes are the ones who drive the economy. The power to tax is the power to destroy, and this is precisely what penalizing the rich and aiding and abetting the poor does, it destroys.

This is the most basic of economic theories...Tax cuts stimulate the economy...JF Kennedy agreed (it worked), Ronald Reagan agreed (it worked), and GW Bush agree (it is working).

There is one reason and one reason only Democrats don't like tax-cuts, because it takes money out of big-brother's hands. This means less power and more personal freedom. This freedom is precisely what Democrats don't want the people to have. They want dependent subjects and an all powerful nanny-state.

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by Yankee911
No doubt Bush/Cheney paid in a lot more in taxes than I made. The big difference is I made mine the old fashion honest way without the help of inside political deals, Saudi oil buddies, former President Daddies, etc, etc, etc.

Dude, really, you gotta put down the crack pipe...I think opinions are like yanks, everyone has one...so I will found my spew with facts.

From the Washington Post (liberal) article, written by John Weicher, senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and visiting scholar at the Federal Reserve Bank (howz that for creds?)...He writes, "Most of the rich have earned their wealth... Looking at the Fortune 400, quite a few even of the very richest people came from a standing start, while others inherited a small business and turned it into a giant corporation."

Then there is John "golddigger" Kerry (either a war criminal or a liar)

John Weicher could be wrong, but most of the wealthy I know earned it themselves.

[Superman]

Hey Tech, Mul's over here and he's saying tax cuts stimulate the economy. And to prove his point he asserts that wealthy people commonly built their own wealth as opposed to inheriting it. I know the first point, aobut tax cuts stimulating the economy, is horse**** and I fail to see how the second point relates to it.

Anyway, I know he keeps you busy disputing his assertions with fact, where his assertions are disjointed and unsubstantiated, but please keep it up. The neocons seem to be a little punch-drunk lately, so perhaps a few well-placed blows will have you standing alone in the ring.

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by Superman
Hey Tech, Mul's over here and he's saying tax cuts stimulate the economy. And to prove his point he asserts that wealthy people commonly built their own wealth as opposed to inheriting it. I know the first point, aobut tax cuts stimulating the economy, is horse**** and I fail to see how the second point relates to it.

"Too large a tax cut, of course, could result in inflation and insufficient future revenues - but the greater danger is a tax cut too little or too late to be effective. Second, the new tax bill must increase private consumption as well as investment. After-tax income could and should be greater, providing stronger markets for the products of American industry.

When consumers purchase more goods, plants use more of their capacity, men are hired instead of laid off, investment increases and profits are high. Corporate tax rates must also be cut to increase incentives and the availability of investment capital. The government has already taken major steps this year to reduce business tax liability and to stimulate the modernization, replacement, and expansion of our productive plant and equipment."

Seems John Fitzgerald Kennedy disagreed with you and tech, Supe.

Tax cuts do not stimulate the economy?...Then what does?...Inefficient bureaucracy and corrupt unions?

Come on dude, smell the coffee...Bush inherited the byproduct of increased taxation (the Clinton recession). Bush cuts taxes ACROSS THE BOARD...The libeRATs tried desperately to stop him because they wanted the economy to fail. The economy would be doing even better if the Democrats didn't cut the tax-breaks.

"Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime" -- Jesus Christ

It is better business for the liberals to keep people wanting another fish and coming to them to get it. It serves them not for people to be self-sufficient.

[Superman]

What Bush did was to cut taxes for rich people and corporations. Rich people consumed the same five years ago as they will this year. Tax cuts do not suddenly make a new car affordable for them. What it does is give them more investment income. So, corporations have more working capital, and investors have more money to throw at corporations. This does essentially the opposite of creating jobs. Heck, those corporation may come into a position to achieve their ultimate fantasy....mechanization. Robotics. This would eliminate the need for those messy, expensive, demanding workers.

I'd agree that the definition of a strong economy is one that places more money into the hands of the consumers. Consumers. Not investors. Your hero's decisions are moving our economy in the wrong direction. The average middle-income taxpayers, the ones who are paying the most taxes (all taxes, not just income tax) as a percent of earned income, has his share of the national debt increase created for us by Little Bush. His share of that debt is probably thirty times the tax cut you think he got.

So, time to post a cartoon, or look up a new word in your thesaurus (that's not a type of dinosauer) to use as an insult.

Very very clever remark about the Dems wanting the economy to fail. Brilliant. Makes me take back all I've said about you. Anybody that is so insightful as to take the position that half our nation wants to destroy America, well, I'm just going to believe everything you say from here on out.

Hey Tech. What's the relationship between Reaganomics and Economics? I mean, when the Wealth party gets into the Oval Office under a promise to cut rich peoples' taxes, what happens? Any graphs? I'm sure Mul is right to conclude that this makes for a vibrant economy, but could we just double-check?

[CamB]

Geeez, tax cuts have come around again. I don't really want to scuzz up a thread about Kerry's policies (and he needs to get out there and explain them better), but the short version.... IMHO, of course:

1) The US has a (big) deficit
2) What little growth there has probably primarily been led by credit based consumer spending (in particular, the semi-fictitious "I'm rich because my house is worth more" phenomenon)
3) Tax cuts reduce federal income
4) No credible economic source will agree that the tax cut money will be spent in a way which increases aggregate real federal income
5) So your deficit is going to get bigger (although there might well be higher GDP growth) - you are buying growth with debt, to be funded by future tax payers

[Burnin' oil]

Originally posted by Mulholland
[B

"Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime" -- Jesus Christ

[/B]

I don't think Jesus Christ said this . . .

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by Burnin' oil
I don't think Jesus Christ said this . . .

I stand corrected...first time ever

[fintstone]

Originally posted by araine901

This is from the Kerry website.

The first thing John Kerry will do is fight his heart out to bring back the three million jobs that have been lost under George W. Bush.

Gee, I think the first thing he should promise to do is to start telling the truth on his website.

Isn't his platform something about getting us out of Vietnam?

[djmcmath]

Originally posted by Mulholland
"Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime" -- Jesus Christ

Kinda beats down your credibility, doesn't it? I mean, if you can make up random quotes and claim that JC said them, what else have you totally manufactured? Not that I disagree with your fundamental premise (that Kerry is probably not a good choice for this country), but your means are absolutely abysmal.

Dan