"The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind." --Thomas Jefferson to Moses Robinson, 1801. ME 10:237

Separation of church and state was developed to prevent the state from infiltrating the church, not the converse.

Very true, and if you look at what Jefferson wrote about the Virginia Religious Freedom documents, he specifically mentions and welcomes followers of Islam and 'Hindoo.'

It puzzles me that Christians somehow interpret any form of deism as Christianity, but I'll bet that if you were to take a poll, the majority of them would do just that.

Wow. Very well articulated.

I am curious as to what it is Bush is doing in his attempt to force Jesus on you? You make it sound as if he favors a state religion. Faith based initiatives don't force anything on anyone. It is simply that these are efficient conduits to the people whom need help. There is no requirement of faith or service. You guys really get up in arms over this and I just don't see it. Where/what is this "pushing of the church/state envelope", or do you just not like that the President himself is strong in his beliefs? I don't get it, is that in itself threatening to you? Would you like to see an atheists/non-practicing Catholics only ammendment to the Constitution?

The lead editorial from the 7-31-04 ALBANY (OR) DEMOCRAT-HERALD:

Sounds good, but the details?





When he accepted the Democratic nomination for president, John Kerry said nothing to which anybody could object. That's because he said nothing much of substance at all.

As others have pointed out, the biggest foreign challenge on the horizon after Iraq is the move by Iran to develop nuclear weapons. We now get occasional commentaries that Iran is a bigger supporter of anti-western terrorism than Iraq ever was. So what would a Kerry administration do? Not a word from Kerry about that.

On the domestic front, what to do about Social Security in the next 20 years or so looms as a big question that demands an answer pretty soon, the sooner the better.

Kerry promised he would not propose to reduce benefits. Fine. Nobody wants benefits reduced. But how does the system pay full benefits to tens of millions of people who will retire in the next 10 years? Won't taxes have to go up?

Kerry says he'll balance the budget in four years or so - an admirable intention. He wants to get rid of tax cuts for corporations. But corporations pay taxes only on paper. Actual taxes are paid by people, whether they be sole owners of companies, stockholders, employees or customers. Nothing from Kerry about which of those would bear the brunt of tax changes he has in mind.

We've had an economic recovery under way for quite some time now. But Kerry has not heard of it. "Here at home," he said, "wages are falling, health care costs are rising, and our great middle class is shrinking."

Actually, as the Republicans were quick to point out, Business Week has just reported that the economy is creating more high-paying jobs than low-paying jobs.

Yes, health care costs are rising, as Kerry said. But what would he do about it? He has lamented that many Americans lack insurance. But if his solution is to expand insurance through the government, then surely that will do nothing to slow the rise of health-care costs.

Kerry said people were working weekends, working two or even three jobs and "still not getting ahead." He wants voters to think that the economy is lousy and he would rescue it, the way he said the Democrats did in the 1990s. It turns out, though, that the average unemployment so far this year (5.6 percent nationally) is about the same as it was for the same period in 1996, when it was 5.5 percent and Bill Clinton was overwhelmingly re-elected.

And in the last three quarters the gross national product has grown nearly twice as fast as it did in the mid-1990s.

Kerry touched on values: "And it is time for those who talk about family values to start valuing families." No one can disagree. But what would Kerry do to help families? The Republicans charged he had voted to deny legal protection to unborn children, in favor of using federal money to make morning-after pills available in schools to prevent pregnancies, and against extending a child tax credit. Everybody is for families in theory, but how such votes help families he does not say.

The Republicans will have their convention at the end of August, and no doubt they too will shower the country with phrases. Let the Kerry speech be a lesson to them. Let them not repeat so many empty words. (hh)

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Pushing Christianity on the world is more like it. When GWB ties democracy to Christianity and vows to bring it to the Middle East, claiming he is doing 'God's will,' it is time to put him back on the ranch.

Brian,

Well said. A religious person gives all the glory of their sucess to God. Therefore whenever they accomplish something (say liberating the people of Iraq) they would likely say this was God's work, or we did the lords work, etc... This does not mean they feel God commanded them to perform the initial action. I think this is pretty common knowledge and I doubt guys like Tech think otherwise. I think you guys just like to use it to say "he thinks God commands him to do these things" in an attempt to make him into a loony. you know better, but it sounds good. Much like Brian said, to require otherwise would be to remove religious folk from public service altogether and as a rule, heck maybe that sounds good to you. In my opinion religion should neither be a requirement nor a barrier to holding office, I thought that was common sense?

Article I, section 7, paragraph 2 of the Constitution, wherein Sunday is chosen as the day not counted in the 10 days that the president is allowed in which to veto a bill. Sunday is the Christian day of rest.

The Constitution closes with the statement "Our day of the Lord..."

The capitalized Lord is a direct reference to Christ Jesus.

The GNP HAD to grow fast just to make up for lost ground. Interesting when the press prints half of the data, ain't it?

Look, there are a LOT of things that can go wrong (or right) on any president's watch. I am not going to blame Bush for all the bad news any more than I did Carter, nor am I going to give Clinton all the credit for a "glorious 8 years".

I still have a problem when a party in power takes credit for a robust economy, the outs say that they can't because the economy is not controlled by the government. The outs become the ins and then take credit for an upturn, when they condemned the other party for doing the same thing on their watch.

Silly, ain't it?

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.” -- Thomas Jefferson

This country is unmistakably founded on Christian values, we are in grave danger if Christ is successfully shoved out of government by the liberals, Democrats, socialists, atheists and communists.

The below Thomas Jefferson quote is oft taken out of context by those who despise Christians and ungratefully spit on that which most inspired our free-market form of limited government.

"The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state...."

they conveniently leave out this...

"but that wall is a one-directional wall. It keeps the government from running the church but makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government."

I'll just, for expediency, ignore that America is predominantly Christian, the Founding Fathers and early Presidents (as well as all current) were/are Christian. I will ignore the fact that our currency references God (Jesus by association). I will ignore Christmas and Easter. I will ignore the mountain of patriotic anthems like "God Bless America," etc.

http://www.moseshand.com/images/Mosesl.jpg

The 10 Commandments and Moses occupy the central relief on the top of the U.S. Supreme Court, as well as 2 other locations in the Supreme Court building.

I think next you may argue with my contention that the sky is blue.

As to your second question...I lean to the Founders, and I believe this passionately...

"If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His [God's] notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? I believe without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the building of Babel." -- Benjamin Franklin