Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11

[RickM]

Justy caught this on Fark. Be prepared for a long read or huge download:

http://www.davekopel.org/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

[djmcmath]

That's a lot of reading, alright. He even supports everything he does with facts, including links to MM's responses, where applicable. I confess to only having made it through the first dozen or so before I became disgusted by MM's blatently misleading attitude. Perhaps if I had a stronger stomach, I could have finished it.

Dan

[trj911]

Good stuff.

[djmcmath]

Funny how marginally factual stuff generates a lot of discussion from both sides. Kerry makes a hand motion, both sides argue vehemently about what he meant. Bush says something ambiguous, people argue about Halliburton. Somebody posts a link to a well-researched counter-documentary on MM's latest movie, and there's an overwhelming silence. Weird.

Dan

[speeder]

It is a long read. I got through the first couple of examples/arguments, it appears to be extremely well vetted and impartial. I have always said that Moore is a hack and an embarassment to documentary film making. This article supports this; he cleverly avoids actual lies in the film but employs deceit throughout.

I don't need MM's B.S. in order to make a case against the Bush administration's handling of domestic and foreign affairs.

[turbo6bar]

I spent an hour reading the page earlier today. Looks good to me. I don't really consider the guy (Moore) a worthy source of commentary, so I don't mind him spewing garbage. If some Americans eat his words, more power to them. I don't expect every human being to think properly, and I hardly expect you guys to agree or even comprehend this dumb redneck from Tennessee.

After all, we's don'ts gets da newspaper down heres. We just talk about nascars and gun racks and then we's goes out shootin' our rifles in du air. Oops, I just shot me a possum. Daddy's gettn a new hat tonite.

Go Dale Jr. Yeehaw!

BTW, I particulary enjoyed Deceit 23-24, when Moore's monkey, Craig Unger?, claims the Saudis own 6 or 7 percent of the US. What a crock!

[djmcmath]

I actually dated a girl from Seattle for a long time who bought into MM as if it were fact. Her whole family did, in fact. Never checked into anything, never questioned any of it. I mean, they all really believed it.

Why? Because MM passes himself off as making documentaries. If you don' take time to look at some other sides to the points he makes (like most of this board has bothered to do), you're liable to fall into the same trap. I guess it's kind of happy that we have free speech, so people can say these things, but kind of sad that we have people putting out stuff this hatefully, but it's pathetic that people take it open-handed as Truth.

Just my humble thoughts ...


Dan

[350HP930]

It still looks liek partisan hack craft to me.

This guy counts the footage of bush in front of his 'mission accomplished' banner and his relationship with prince bandar as deceptions because he does not agree with MM's interpretation.

Disagreeing with someone's opinions of events is not the same thing as someone trying to deceve you.

I know that to right wingers anything other than fawning for superleader bush us sedition and deception.

While MM may have his biases I think the head in the sand croud do protest too much.

[techweenie]

I wonder if those of you who wasted time with this silly site also looked at the Michael Moore site where all the claims in the movie are sourced?

Is it really 'deception' when a celebration is shown based on a contemporaneous projected win rather than a "called" win? Did Kopel bother to say it was 2:16 AM when the call went the other way? Pretty sure there wasnt' much going on to film at 2:10 AM... But these are just stubborn facts.

Did anyone notice that Kopel got his facts wrong about who "called" the election and when?

[fintstone]

Originally posted by djmcmath
Funny how marginally factual stuff generates a lot of discussion from both sides. Kerry makes a hand motion, both sides argue vehemently about what he meant. Bush says something ambiguous, people argue about Halliburton. Somebody posts a link to a well-researched counter-documentary on MM's latest movie, and there's an overwhelming silence. Weird.
Dan

Because it is a waste of time. That is because none of us...even the liberals actually believe a word Moore said. They are just hoping some other poor, stupid, dumbass, liberal moron will. Even they are embarassed by Moore...but he produces the kind of propaganda that will effectively deceive the uneducated voter that the liberal target...the kind like in Florida that cannot punch a ballot correctly.

[jyl]

If anyone reading this thread hasn't already made up his mind, I suggest they read both the kopel site (attacking the statements in F911) and the moore site (defending the statements in F911) http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/ and make up your own mind.

I can't honestly claim I read the entirety of either site. They go on and on and on. I read the first several deceits listed on the kopel site, read the defense on the moore site, spent about an hour doing research on my own (Google is an amazing tool).

The conclusion I came to is that kopel's claimed deceits (the ones I read, anyway) don't actually identify false factual statements. Instead, they are "impressionistic" arguments. Kopel explains the "impression" he got from F911, then argues his impression was wrong. However, if you didn't get the same impression when you saw the movie, then who's at fault? How about Kopel?

For example, F911 says Fox was the first network to call Florida for Bush. Kopel says "Moore thus creates the false impression that the networks withdrew their claim about Gore winning Florida when they heard that Fox said that Bush won Florida." Sorry, but Kopel has mixed up retracting a call for Gore and making a call for Bush, so he's reached the wrong impression - inadvertently, I'm sure. F911 says that Fox was the first network to call Florida for Bush, and that is the documented truth (it happened at 2:16am, and the other networks followed shortly thereafter).

He also seems to nitpick a lot. Like when he says F911 deceitfully calls Katherine Harris the "vote count woman" when she doesn't actually count the votes, she merely certifies the count. Look, I'm not stupid. I know she didn't get down on her knees and personally count the ballots. She was the Secretary of State and on the Election Board, she supervised the elections and the vote counting, and she made the decision to certify (accept) a vote count or, later, to refuse to certify (reject) a vote re-count. Maybe F911 should call her the "vote count certifying woman" - gimme a break, who cares?

Of course, F911 is a partisan, opinionated movie that tries its hardest to persuade the viewer to vote against Bush. And because it is a movie, it has to be watchable and to last under 2 hours, so not every footnote and detail can fit in. So I can agree that Moore does everything he can to present Bush unfavorably and make his anti-Bush case - he uses hints, innuendo, cuts and editing, camera angles, emotions, all the tricks. He's pretty upfront about it - do you think anyone walked into see F911 thinking that Moore supported Bush?

But I didn't find F911 riddled with false statements of fact, as Kopel says. (Again, I only had time to read the first several claims of deceit. I'd hope Kopel led off with his best stuff.)

If you support Bush, I can see that you might call the movie "detestable" or even "disgusting". But calling it "deceitful" is, in my opinion, unjustified.

[araine901]

is there such a thing as an impressionist documentarian? I thought they were supposed to be OBJECTIVE. But I am often wrong.