Does evil exist?

[Superman]

Having been overcome for many years by a love for wisdom (philo-sophia) I struggled with this apparent conundrum.

-God created all things
-God is all good
-God is all powerful
-evil exists

I resolved the dissonance, but not with the analogy the student uses.

But I had the most fun with the Kantian form of St. Anselm's proof of the existence of God.

-I am thinking of a being than which there can be no greater (common definition of God)
-If the being I am thinking of does not exist, then I am not thinking of a being than which there can be no greater
---Therefore, God exists.

Now, this seems like nonsense at first blush. Most will dismiss it out of hand. Various bases are thrown out as justification for dismissal, but if you examine the criticisms thoroughly, they fall away one by one. Unless someone can wrap their mind around this one more effectively than Emmanuel Kant (good luck), several weeks of analysis will lead to the conclusion that this is basically another definition of God. The Being whose essence necessitates His existence.

Oh and I also see no conflict between evolution and creation. Any apparent conflict is evidence that there is stuff we don't understand. Now there's an understatement. Heck, there's stuff that, even in the face of full disclosure of all the facts and principles...we still would not understand. I think it's pretty presumptuous for either side to pretend they have enough evidence to reach a conclusion. Like boisterous children, only tall and hairy and wearing big kids' clothes.

[djmcmath]

Can we do a separate thread for Creation/Evolution? That's a fun argument that we haven't screamed at each other about in at least a couple of months, and I'd love to do that again.

As to evil, I've managed to reduce the dissonance a little more simply. Evil is a direct product of free will. If we have the freedom to choose our own fate, we will choose to do Bad Things just like we will choose to do Good Things. God did two things to "create evil": (1) He gave us the ability to choose. (2) He defined some things as "good" and others as "evil," and recognized that evil things can be done just like good things. Rebelling against God, for example, is defined as "evil," in the context of this discussion. For a well-written philosophical discussion of free will, check out "Following Gandalf," by Matthew Dickerson (Amazon: Used, $6). He lays out the arguments for free will and evil quite nicely, much more eloquently than I could manage.

Cheers,

Dan

[widebody911]

"I refuse to proof that i exist", says god, "for proof denies faith and without faith i'm nothing."
"But the babelfish is a dead giveaway, isn't it?" says man. "It could never have evolved by pure chance. it proves that you exist, and therefore, by your own argument, you don't. q.e.d.!"
"Oh dear", says god. "i hadn't thought of that", and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

[nostatic]

Bob, you missed my point. I wasn't saying that scientists can't believe in some aspect of creation theory. And I don't believe that science and religion can't mix. I was trying to point out the lack of logical/critical thinking represented in the jump from cute story to "evolution is wrong."

I *am* trained as a scientist, and I *am* able to find an acceptable middle ground between creation and evolution. I *believe* that a higher power (pick your favorite) put things into motion and continues to have a hand in things. I also *believe* that this higher power as you said, gave us a brain and a sense of humor (well, some of us).

That is what I *believe*, but I can't prove it. I makes sense to me given my life experience. If anyone else doesn't believe it that's fine. Since logical arguments CANNOT be applied to this case (other than to dispute some of the technical facts/assumptions), to use "logic" to "prove" either pure creation or pure evolution is in my mind falacious.

[Superman]

Thom, one of the things that make me shake my head in disbelief is the MOUNTAIN of immensely obvious evidence that one has to disregard in order the be an atheist. Sure, I agree that faith is faith, and not logic or science. And it is a choice for each of us. But again, the evidence that God exists must be too obvious to see. For some.

[lendaddy]

Not to rain on parades here but the acknowledgment of A god isn't "good enough" for any religion. Simply accepting a greater being is easy if not logical beyond argument, but what does this do for you (assuming you believe in an afterlife)? Nada.

[Emission]

Originally posted by Superman
"...one of the things that make me shake my head in disbelief is the MOUNTAIN of immensely obvious evidence that one has to disregard in order the be an atheist... the evidence that God exists must be too obvious to see."

Sure, if you believe in a god.

When I attended Catholic mass each week for 20+ years I thought the same thing.

[RickM]

Originally posted by Mulholland
Evil is simply the absence of God.

So an agnostic or atheist must be evil. That's narrow minded.

[Emission]

Originally posted by RickM
So an agnostic or atheist must be evil. That's narrow minded.

Agreed.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by RickM
So an agnostic or atheist must be evil. That's narrow minded.

consider the source

[RickM]

Quote: "...according to the principal that our works define who we are"

This is where the problem starts. Who's principal is this?

[nostatic]

Originally posted by RickM
Quote: "...according to the principal that our works define who we are"

This is where the problem starts. Who's principal is this?

I think that was my elementary school principal.

Too bad the writer of the cute story didn't know the difference between principal and prinicple...

[dd74]

It's simple really: because we can't prove or seem to be comfortable with our evolutionary past, we pass our past to someone else. Problem is, that someone else cannot even prove him/itself which gives that someone no right to pontificate what or whom created us. So we're back to square one.

I think the invention of higher beings comes from a core habit of man not taking responsibility for himself.

Ironically womankind does not seem to have this same argument - at least on this board. Could that be because women can indeed create life?

[BlueSkyJaunte]

I find it amusing that there is more evidence for the existence of WMD's in Iraq than there is evidence for the existence of God.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by BlueSkyJaunte
I find it amusing that there is more evidence for the existence of WMD's in Iraq than there is evidence for the existence of God.

Yet they're both worth killing for, apparently...

[lendaddy]

I remember when I thought I was intelligent/enlightened proclaiming no higher being. Damn did I feel smart

[dd74]

Originally posted by lendaddy
I remember when I thought I was intelligent/enlightened proclaiming no higher being. Damn did I feel smart

It's not about being smart. It's about responsibility.

[lendaddy]

"It's about responsibility."

Ya lost me, please elaborate. How is it being reponsible(and for whom/what) to deny a higher being?

[Superman]

I got a lot of respect for you BSJ, but I'm sticking to my story. I think that proof of God's existence is so obvious and so ubiquitous that, with eyes shut, in a dark, silent room, a rational creature can reach that conclusion in seconds. As long as the mind is empty of what I can best describe as 'criticism.' Rene Descartes did it.

Oh, and in the argument above, the principle that our works define who we are does not need to come into play. God is all powerful. God is all good. God created the world. The world has evil in it. The logical fallacy is already there. How can an all-powerful, all-good creature create evil? He could have created the world in any shape (all powerful) but chose to create or permit evil.

But God's thrust is toward the good. And He cannot get anything moving in that direction if everything is good. The evil is necessary in order for good to occur, or be chosen. Without evil, the world is void of this entire value scale.

Or maybe He did not create evil, but rather we create evil with our decisions. And maybe that stems from some kind of delegation of divinity. Maybe we're given that little option as a training bike. Maybe we're little Gods-In-Training.

[Superman]

Women are hugely more inclined to attend church.