Does evil exist?

[RickM]

Hmm, Back to the title of this thread...Does evil exist? It's relative. Perhaps our actions are natural no matter how trivial or heinous.

Good and evil are what WE make it.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally posted by Superman
[B]I got a lot of respect for you BSJ

Why???

Anyway, my big disagreement is with folks who claim to be doing "God's/Allah's/Fred's works" as an excuse to annoy, proselytize, harrass, impede, hurt, torture, and murder other people. Perhaps it's too Libertarian of me, but I'd like just once to see people keep it to their damned selves, and leave me (and like-minded folk) alone.

Superman, you seem to manage to have faith without shoving it down everyone else's throats...something a number of the other folks on this board need to learn how to do.

Oh, and here's something for you guys to chew over: some of the things you might define as "good" would definitely fall in my category for "evil".

[Emission]

Originally posted by Superman
"...I think that proof of God's existence is so obvious and so ubiquitous that, with eyes shut, in a dark, silent room, a rational creature can reach that conclusion in seconds..."

I don't believe in God.

But, I am highly intelligent, very rational, and an overall pretty nice guy. I am not evil, though I lack God. I don't discuss "my religion" with anyone as it is my personal decision (my wife, and children, are Catholic). I am very happy.

I love and respect other people, animals, and nature. I also respect other religions and faiths, no matter how "wacko" or "irrational" they may seem.

Evil is part of human nature.

[dd74]

Originally posted by lendaddy
"It's about responsibility."

Ya lost me, please elaborate. How is it being reponsible(and for whom/what) to deny a higher being?

Here's what I mean: God's will is a cop out to me. God's will has nothing at all to do with man's will to function when man has all power over nearly everything on earth except for weather, earthquakes, fire, etc. - which are natural elements and which can to an extent also be controlled by man. Actions seek responsibility which should revert back to the person committing the action - not intangibles such as "God." Example: you hit a home run. Well, that was done by your own strength and ability to get the ball over the wall - no one else. Another example: you're in a traffic accident that kills someone's child. You're drunk. That's your responsibility. No God put that beer in your hand, nor the keys, nor the gear shift, etc.

So when I hear arguments about an almighty, my thoughts immediately go to man. Humanity has ultimate control over its own fate. Being "smart" has nothing to do with it, whether you're pro-God or not. Being "responsible" has everything to do with it. Taking responsibility for one's actions, whether good or bad, and not shouldering it on some entity that may not be real, is the first step toward true human responsibility.

[lendaddy]

Who said anything about god's will? I am speaking mearly about the existence thereof. My point has nothing to do with whether god knows/cares/or influences anything about your life. Simply the acceptance that we are not the pinnacle of life.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by dd74
Here's what I mean: God's will is a cop out to me.


My fave is when some attributes something good to god, like getting out of a burning building . So if they didn't get out, it's god's fault? Why don't you see people pissed off about god not saving someone, or helping them win the Big Game, etc?

So if you're in a burning building, you should just sit down and wait, 'cause if god means for you to be saved, you'll be saved. To fight to get out is going against god's will, right?

[dd74]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Who said anything about god's will? I am speaking mearly about the existence thereof. My point has nothing to do with whether god knows/cares/or influences anything about your life. Simply the acceptance that we are not the pinnacle of life.

And I answered your question using the word "responsibility." In fact, you answered your own question, lendaddy. A pinnacle of life influences life itself. So the real question is are you or are you not the pinnacle of your own life? Is it you, or is it something else that controls your life?

[on-ramp]

more people have been killed in the name of "God" than probably any other reason in the history of the planet.

religion and morality exist separately

[dtw]

Originally posted by on-ramp
more people have been killed in the name of "God" than probably any other reason in the history of the planet.

religion and morality exist separately

Please provide a secular moral code that you find superior to the 10 Commandments. Thank you.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

The Hippocratic oath.

The three Laws of Robotics.

Et al.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Morality/HumanistCode.shtml

[dtw]

Hippocratic Oath: Nice. Indeed an elegant rule. Doesn't seem to be as comprehensive a guide for daily life as the Ten Commandments, but ok...

Asimov: Strikingly similar to the libertarian credo if not overly simplistic. Works for robots. Guess I should have qualifed my question a bit better. Apologies.

Your Link: I dutifully clicked through and proceeded to skim through 4+ pages of feverish, defensive ranting. Nowhere amonst the non-sequiters and Escher-like logic did I find a moral code.

"on-ramp" posits that religion and morality exist separately. I'm just asking for some backbone to support the statement. Respectfully...

Edit: Actually I agree 100% with on-ramp. Religion and morality can indeed exist separately. But again - a better moral code than the 10 Commandments, please? Or here's one to bake your noodle: Fine, you don't believe in God. Taking God out of the picture, can you find a more concise and/or profound code to live by? Am I being devil's advocate tonight? YUP. I've had a LOOOOT to drink (Beer, approved by good Christian monks for centuries...)

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally posted by dtw
Hippocratic Oath: Nice. Indeed an elegant rule. Doesn't seem to be as comprehensive a guide for daily life as the Ten Commandments, but ok...

OK, do you want a moral code or a program to run? Thinking for yourself is tough...

[dd74]

Originally posted by BlueSkyJaunte
OK, do you want a moral code or a program to run? Thinking for yourself is tough...

Heh heh! I couldn't have said it better myself.

[dtw]

So you consider the Ten Commandments a program? Overly prohibitive? Too complicated?

Like I said, I'll bet on your horse and take "God" out of the equation, just so you can't play the 'cramming religion down your throat' card and I'm not playing the "godless liberal hedonist" card... Ten Commandments aren't elegant?

[350HP930]

The ten commandments are not original, novel or unique to the semitic people.

They existed before moses claimed to have gotten them from a burning bush. If you were to learn about anthropology and other cultures you will find that not killing your neighbor or coveting his wife was taboo long before moses ever lived.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally posted by dtw
So you consider the Ten Commandments a program? Overly prohibitive? Too complicated?

I wasn't specifically referring to the commandments here, just the fact that you're looking for a "comprehensive a guide for daily life".

Like I said, I'll bet on your horse and take "God" out of the equation, just so you can't play the 'cramming religion down your throat' card and I'm not playing the "godless liberal hedonist" card... Ten Commandments aren't elegant?

There's nothing in the commandments about rape, assault, sexual abuse, child molestation, or other things that clearly fall under under the category of "doing harm". When you start to codify laws against specific behaviors, you end up having to cover all the bases. "Do no harm" is truly elegant.

Further, all who profess to be Christian are violating commandments 1 and 2 (no other gods and graven images--I don't buy that BS about Jesus and God being the same thing) and I'm willing to bet most of you violate commandment 4 on a weekly basis.

[Moneyguy1]

Someone once simplified moraal code to the following and I kind of like it:

Don't hurt each other

When you stop to think about it, that just about covers everything

[dtw]

Money, I like it.

Golden Rule, basically...which now that I think of it, is indeed non-secular and quite elegant.

Back to our regularly scheduled "Does evil exist?"...

[dd74]

Originally posted by dtw


Back to our regularly scheduled "Does evil exist?"...

First define "exist," because there are many forms of "evil" in our world.

[350HP930]

By my definition or the word, bush and most of his staff is evil.