well, I wasn't in 'nam so I can't tell you what happened (or what I think happened). But the fact-check guys are pretty thorough with their arguments so I'll let them do the talking. They've debunked a lot of Kerrys campaign stuff too, they are pretty fair about what they do.

BTW, what exactly do you consider "proof" and "fact"? I think we all see what we want to see to some extent but, unless you've been living in a cave for the last two weeks, you've probably seen every credible news source on the planet punch holes through the SBVFT's story. What would convince you?

This will pan out soon enough. The SBV's said they would take polygraphs, and I hope they do. If they are proven frauds I will be more than happy to hang my head in defeat.

Lie detectors would be interesting, of course, but you know and I know that OJ would pass a polygraph because he's convinced himself of his innocence. 30 years of being angry at someone can probably create a similar situation.

So if the swifties have mixed polygraph results, but the guys who were actually on Kerry's boat under his command do better, will that make you 'hang your head'?

And since you refer to it as a personal 'defeat' doesn't that tell us all we need to know about how open you are to the truth?

And what do you have to say about Thurlow & O'Neill?

I admit when either I or my "side" are wrong, is this a character flaw?

What about Thurlow & O'Neill?

For those who don't know who Thurlow is, heres a news clip from salon.com:


Thurlow, the commander of another swift boat who won a Bronze Star for helping the crew of PCF-3, insists there was no enemy gunfire during the incident. The citation and recommendation for Thurlow's Bronze Star, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, also mention enemy fire, however.


Thurlow's medal recommendation, for example, says he helped the PCF-3 crew "under constant enemy small arms fire." That recommendation is signed by George Elliott, another member of the anti-Kerry group. It lists as the only witness for the incident Robert Eugene Lambert, an enlisted man who was not on Kerry's boat who also won the Bronze Star that day.

Elliot wrote the reports based on what he was told. Elliot was NOT there. Thurlow said he was unaware that his medal was for doing anything under enemy fire. Big whup

So WTF did Thurlow think that he got a Bronze Star for??

Just being a nice guy? :rolleyes:

His story stinks like a dead, beached whale named Karl Rove.

Anyone happen to see today's papers yet? It just keeps getting worse and worse for the Swift Republican Smear Boat scumbags, this election is the dirtiest thing ever and the people involved re-define the term ass holio.

This entire 4 years is going to go down as the worst in American history. Shameful. :(

87% of 527 monies has gone to attack Bush (Kerry/Gore/Dean have all talked at fundraisers for Moveon.org)...$150,000 dollars was spent by Vietnam Vets who were lied about for political opportunism by Kerry, and now being slimed by the Kerryites, attacked and fascistically maligned by the left.

Why is Kerry so upset and attacking Vietnam vets right to free speech?

Why didn't Bush go for the Democrat 527's throats?

Why didn't the media attack Moveon.org?

"Methinks they dost protest too much." [/Hamlet]

Moveon.org hasn't broadcast lies. They haven't had to lie, theres plenty of reality to talk about.

personal? yes
angry? yes
lies? no

John Kerry has lied about his medals and being in Cambodia under Nixon.

Why isn't the mainstream media focusing on this?

Why aren't they focusing on Kerry's war crimes?

Why did Kerry throw his medals away, change his story about throwing them away at least three times, and then have them hanging on his wall?

With most of TV, radio, and newspapers owned by republican run multinational corporations, it makes you wonder doesn't it.

want to buy any of my used parts?

“200,000 veterans cut off from health system.”

This is a lie from a Moveon/Kerry add.

“George Bush wants to eliminate overtime pay for 8 million workers.”

Another lie...same add, two lies.

So why would "republican run multinational corporations" hire Tim Russert, Chris Matthews, George Steponallofus, Dan Rather, Peter Jennings, Tom Brokaw, the 60 minutes staff, etc.?

If this "republican run blah blah blah" was true, then, praytell, who are their talking heads that represent them?

are you sure you don't want any of my used parts? I'll make you a great deal.

- Tim Russert is a weak interviewer, thats how get gets guests. I like his show, but he's a wimp.
- Chris Matthews isn't much better.
- Even Wolf Blizter has dropped the ball on some pretty heavy interviews. He let Katherine Harris compare pro-choice'ers to terrorists without contension a few months back. Terrible.
- Rather and Jennings read from the teleprompter
- 60 minutes is exempt, they simpy have too much jounalistic clout. That hasn't stopped CBS from cleansing the rest of its news.

Between Clear Channel, AOL Time Warner, and GE, the markets are pretty much flooded I'd say. Ofcourse, thats just my opinion.

Is JFKerry a liar, fraud or war criminal?

He is at least one of the above, or all of the above.

So, Matt, what is it?...Is Kerry a liar, fraud or war-criminal?

Edited for content. -Z-man.

So you've ducked these...glad we got that out of the way.
Name the Republicans for me who control your above mentioned editorial boards...Name for me who their Republican journalist and commentators are (we aren't talking talk-show hosts here)...We are talking control and command Republicans.

Bring it on or eat your regurgitated spew.

LOL.
"****Matt"? original, I like it, but I've heard better.
This discussion isn't fun anymore. Im going back to work

Edited for content. -Z-man.

Can't stand the heat?...didn't think so.

Note: your name calling is uncalled for and will not be tolerated. -Z-man

"I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that."

"Or something like that"?....brilliant oration...He "didn't see personal atrocities"...except his own?

"However, I did take part in free fire zones and I did take part in harassment interdiction fire. I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground. And all of these, I find out later on, these acts are contrary to the Hague and Geneva Conventions and to the laws of warfare. So in that sense, anybody who took part in those, if you carry out the applications of the Nuremberg principles, is in fact guilty."

John "F'em" Kerry


The Vietnam soldiers who returned to a welcome home of shame, judgement, threats and being spit on will always remember John "war-criminal" Kerry for what he did to them in order to attain political office.

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."


So, Mat, what is it...is Kerry a liar, fraud or war-criminal?


seared

Mul, if you read the links Mat has provided with a mind that was open, even just a fraction, to the fact that there might be explanations for any of those soundbites, then you would at least wonder whether it was right to post that.

Kerry - in his own words - was an angry young man when he made that last comment. He was opposing the US war, based on a list of atrocities that were committed by US forces.

He may have (probably did) embellished stuff. He may even have done it to further his political career.

But the level of personal attack and character assassination on Kerry is disgraceful and (since you called Mat ****Mat, I'll remind you) probably not something that is biblically encouraged.

As for me - I'm tired of this subject. I don't think Kerry is being 100%, but I think he is being more so than the SBV.

Edited for content. Z-man.

Cam:

Some people give Christianity a really bad name.

Christ was not a name caller or one who advocated hate toward anyone.

Despise the sin, not the sinner.

Yours was an excellent retort to a bigot.

From your link (it is not the authority by the way)

Kerry: "I don't like it, but I want you to notice that at the end, I wasn't talking about the soldiers and the soldiers' blame, and my great regret is, I hope no soldier--I mean, I think some soldiers were angry at me for that, and I understand that and I regret that, because I love them."

http://jeffblogworthy.com/uploads/kerrylied2.jpg

Seems to be a contradiction here?...Why no grilling?

"But the words were honest but on the other hand, they were a little bit over the top."

What exactly was "a bit over the top"...How does that comport with the "words were honest"?
Now we are cooking with gas...He continued the lie beyond his "angry young man" phase...In the below case he continued the lie to support Sandinistas who were murdering dissenters and preventing free elections (Kerry lost this battle and Nicargua has been free and democratic ever since)

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."

Nothing in that cartoon balloon attributed to Kerry is incorrect.

Mul, did you read anything posted here in the last 2 months? Did you read the Toledo Blade article? Would you like to go visit the Vietnam vet I spoke with last week about taking ears as trophies?

If Kerry was 5 miles from the Cambodian border, that's fine by me. Plenty of other Americans were ordered into Cambodia before 1970.

Mul, your history teachers really failed you, but you can make up for it by going to actual research on the Internet. Just try to stay away from the hate sites.

Comparing SBVfT with MoveOn is ludicrous. MoveOn has restrained itself to talking about current campaign issues.

SBVfT is only about hate.

Really Cam?...

Teresa Heinz Kerry Likened Bush’s Four Years In White House To Four “[i]Years Of Hell.”[/b] “Teresa Heinz Kerry, the candidate’s wife, provided her own rejoinder as she introduced her husband to a crowd of more than 10,000 spread on both banks of the Milwaukee River in the downtown of Wisconsin’s largest city. When a Bush supporter started chanting ‘Four more years’ over a bullhorn outside the park where they appeared, Heinz Kerry stopped and proclaimed, ‘They want four more years of hell.’” (Glen Johnson, “Kerry, President Spar Over Policy,” The Boston Globe, 8/3/04)

Kerry Called Bush Supporters “Goons.” “[Kerry] branded the protesters ‘goons’ who will ‘excite us to do a little more work.’” (Glen Johnson, “Kerry, President Spar Over Policy,” The Boston Globe, 8/3/04)

Kerry Blamed Bush Policies For Encouraging Recruitment Of Terrorists. “‘I believe this administration, in its policies, is actually encouraging the recruitment of terrorists,’ Kerry said. ‘We haven’t done the work necessary to reach out to other countries. We haven’t done the work necessary with the Muslim world.’” (David Jackson, “Kerry Criticizes Bush For Acting Too Slowly On Homeland Security,” The Dallas Morning News, 8/3/04)

Kerry Said Bush Misled America. KERRY: “I’ve said many times that the president misled America.” FOX NEWS’ CHRIS WALLACE: “Intentionally?” KERRY: “He misled us in what he said he would do in terms of how he would use the authority that we voted for in Congress. I voted for that authority.” (Fox’s “Fox News Sunday,” 8/1/04)

Kerry’s Speech Also Accused Bush Of Hurting Families. “You don’t value families by kicking kids out of after school programs and taking cops off our streets, so that Enron can get another tax break.” (Sen. John Kerry, Nomination Acceptance Speech, Boston, MA, 7/29/04)

Al Sharpton Attacked Bush At Democrat Convention. “I suggest to you tonight that if George Bush had selected the Court in ‘54, Clarence Thomas would have never got to law school.” (Rev. Al Sharpton, Remarks At Democratic National Convention, Boston, MA, 7/28/04)

Sen. Ted Kennedy Attacked Bush At Democrat Convention. “In the depths of the Depression, Franklin Roosevelt inspired the nation when he said, ‘The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.’ Today, we say the only thing we have to fear is four more years of George Bush.” (Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, Remarks At Democratic National Convention, Boston, MA, 7/27/04)

Dean Likened Bush To Book-Burning Fascist. “[Dean] unleashed a few new gems yesterday … He said that more ‘ordinary people’ should get into politics and run for local office; indeed, he said, ‘I think a library trustee is a pretty important job’ - and that’s because the Bush administration ‘likes book-burning more than reading books.’ Raucous cheers, nervous laughs, strangulated gasps, general bedlam. Then came a fond reminiscence about his zealous campaign activists: ‘There were a few slipups. You’re not supposed to call the President a fascist … not this week, anyway.’” (Dick Polman, “Howard Dean Muzzled - But Not At All Muffled,” Philadelphia Inquirer, 7/28/04)




Go rethink the nonsense you willingly ingest Cam.

Give me Bush or high level Republican similar attacks Cam?...Just one would do nicely.

Edited for content. -Z-man.

Sure it is incorrect...He didn't at all mention how brutal the communists were, or how American "war crimes" were isolated incidents that were overwhelmed by good soldiers who had no part in these types of actions.

Nor did he mention how if the communists were allowed to take Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, any fraction of alleged American attrocities would be eclipsed.

Kerry: "I don't like it, but I want you to notice that at the end, I wasn't talking about the soldiers and the soldiers' blame."

Were the comments incorrect or not?

Unsurprisingly, I agree with almost every quote Mul just posted ;)

Edited for content. The whole paragraph was a personal attack. -Z-man.

Seared...seared in his mind.

Kerry is a war-criminal, a liar and a fraud...attacking Vietnam Vets who served honorably is akin to fascism...The Democrats are using tax-payer dollars to destroy soldiers who were decorated, some are Democrats, all served their full terms and many were severely injured.

For 33 years the Vietnam Vets have been demonized by the ultra-left communist sympathizers...They were spit on for a homecoming present...They were called "baby killers" and "warmongers"...Many internalized their Kerry/media imposed shame, destroying themselves with alcohol, destroying their families, driving them crazy with guilt complex and driving them to homelessness and suicide.

I am comfortable defending homosexuality and those who have chosen abortion from persecution.

I don't condone abortion - we've discussed this before.

And no-one on this Board has said anything which puts them into the Islamic murderers or communist sympathizers category.

Half your comments above were said by Democrats at their convention. Maybe we should wait until after the Republican convention before I answer. The 3rd, 4th and 5th comments aren't personal attacks or character assassination, IMO.

WTF does politics have to be so dirty in your country. Its pathetic.

Pathetic is a good word....

Cam, Attacks are used so often to cover an indefensible position, whether it be pollitics or warfare.

holy crap, it is like talking to a wall. You are not even willing to accept that alternative viewpoints might have any relevance, let alone merit.

You mean like what the Kerry/media machine are doing to the Swift Boat Vets and George Bush?

That is how the True Believers react, Cam...Logic, reason and facts mean little or nothing. The indoctronation is absolute and complete.

Might as well just his the good old "ignore" button.

Facts are by their very nature bigoted, biased, cold and hard...that is precisely why socialists demonize anyone who uses them, because you cannot change a fact, only demonize the messenger.

yeah, it would seem that when they name themselves "factcheck" that one would hope that they live up to their name.

However, you have to consider that perhaps they give themselves that name for pure illusion . . .like the Handsel & Gretel "candy house" (owned by a witch) . . or Michael Jacksons "Neverland Ranch" full of big . ..er . ..rides:rolleyes: "for the children".

I expect you may be thinking, island is just being contrary:cool: while that maybe true, I have listened to, and watched the Anneberg societys (factchecks fat-check provider) "Director of Policy". . I forget her name. However, what was memorable was her out-right pimping for Kerry.

Their "Director of Policy" went on, telling a long story about what could have happened . . .what "likely happened" for John Kerry in Vietnam. . .and how these 200+ vet's must not remember it right. . .being so long ago . ..donncha know.

She certainly did NOT consider that John Kerry made a spectical of himself when he got back. She did NOT throw out the notion that maybe these vets would be damn sure to reflect on exactly the type of man John Kerry was the few months prior, to his national expose.

Nope, she was nothing but spinning and pimping for John Kerry.

When the "Director of Policy" is spinning this (on "NOW" w/ Moyer) ask yourself if she'll give any pro-Kerry "fact" the benifit of the doubt.

So, Im really just saying, you need to use some critical thinking especially when some organization tries to imply that you need none.

Warning: Mulholland: You have a PM. But I am also going to state something here:

You must refrain from personal attacks in your posts. If I see or hear of one more such attack, YOU WILL BE BANNED. No ifs ands or buts.

I know that political discussions can get out of hand. Just keep everything above the belt.

Understood?

And to the rest: if you attempt to entice Mulholland into attacks, you will be dealt with as well.

-Zoltan, OT Forum Moderator

PS: I am so looking forward to the days when the elections are over: 3,5 years of a nice quite forum, where all I have to do is remove objectionable pictures and help people post in BOLD and ITALICS :rolleyes: