well, I wasn't in 'nam so I can't tell you what happened (or what I think happened). But the fact-check guys are pretty thorough with their arguments so I'll let them do the talking. They've debunked a lot of Kerrys campaign stuff too, they are pretty fair about what they do.

BTW, what exactly do you consider "proof" and "fact"? I think we all see what we want to see to some extent but, unless you've been living in a cave for the last two weeks, you've probably seen every credible news source on the planet punch holes through the SBVFT's story. What would convince you?

This will pan out soon enough. The SBV's said they would take polygraphs, and I hope they do. If they are proven frauds I will be more than happy to hang my head in defeat.

Lie detectors would be interesting, of course, but you know and I know that OJ would pass a polygraph because he's convinced himself of his innocence. 30 years of being angry at someone can probably create a similar situation.

So if the swifties have mixed polygraph results, but the guys who were actually on Kerry's boat under his command do better, will that make you 'hang your head'?

And since you refer to it as a personal 'defeat' doesn't that tell us all we need to know about how open you are to the truth?

And what do you have to say about Thurlow & O'Neill?

I admit when either I or my "side" are wrong, is this a character flaw?

What about Thurlow & O'Neill?

For those who don't know who Thurlow is, heres a news clip from salon.com:


Thurlow, the commander of another swift boat who won a Bronze Star for helping the crew of PCF-3, insists there was no enemy gunfire during the incident. The citation and recommendation for Thurlow's Bronze Star, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, also mention enemy fire, however.


Thurlow's medal recommendation, for example, says he helped the PCF-3 crew "under constant enemy small arms fire." That recommendation is signed by George Elliott, another member of the anti-Kerry group. It lists as the only witness for the incident Robert Eugene Lambert, an enlisted man who was not on Kerry's boat who also won the Bronze Star that day.

Elliot wrote the reports based on what he was told. Elliot was NOT there. Thurlow said he was unaware that his medal was for doing anything under enemy fire. Big whup

So WTF did Thurlow think that he got a Bronze Star for??

Just being a nice guy? :rolleyes:

His story stinks like a dead, beached whale named Karl Rove.

Anyone happen to see today's papers yet? It just keeps getting worse and worse for the Swift Republican Smear Boat scumbags, this election is the dirtiest thing ever and the people involved re-define the term ass holio.

This entire 4 years is going to go down as the worst in American history. Shameful. :(

87% of 527 monies has gone to attack Bush (Kerry/Gore/Dean have all talked at fundraisers for Moveon.org)...$150,000 dollars was spent by Vietnam Vets who were lied about for political opportunism by Kerry, and now being slimed by the Kerryites, attacked and fascistically maligned by the left.

Why is Kerry so upset and attacking Vietnam vets right to free speech?

Why didn't Bush go for the Democrat 527's throats?

Why didn't the media attack Moveon.org?

"Methinks they dost protest too much." [/Hamlet]

Moveon.org hasn't broadcast lies. They haven't had to lie, theres plenty of reality to talk about.

personal? yes
angry? yes
lies? no

John Kerry has lied about his medals and being in Cambodia under Nixon.

Why isn't the mainstream media focusing on this?

Why aren't they focusing on Kerry's war crimes?

Why did Kerry throw his medals away, change his story about throwing them away at least three times, and then have them hanging on his wall?

With most of TV, radio, and newspapers owned by republican run multinational corporations, it makes you wonder doesn't it.

want to buy any of my used parts?

“200,000 veterans cut off from health system.”

This is a lie from a Moveon/Kerry add.

“George Bush wants to eliminate overtime pay for 8 million workers.”

Another lie...same add, two lies.

So why would "republican run multinational corporations" hire Tim Russert, Chris Matthews, George Steponallofus, Dan Rather, Peter Jennings, Tom Brokaw, the 60 minutes staff, etc.?

If this "republican run blah blah blah" was true, then, praytell, who are their talking heads that represent them?

are you sure you don't want any of my used parts? I'll make you a great deal.

- Tim Russert is a weak interviewer, thats how get gets guests. I like his show, but he's a wimp.
- Chris Matthews isn't much better.
- Even Wolf Blizter has dropped the ball on some pretty heavy interviews. He let Katherine Harris compare pro-choice'ers to terrorists without contension a few months back. Terrible.
- Rather and Jennings read from the teleprompter
- 60 minutes is exempt, they simpy have too much jounalistic clout. That hasn't stopped CBS from cleansing the rest of its news.

Between Clear Channel, AOL Time Warner, and GE, the markets are pretty much flooded I'd say. Ofcourse, thats just my opinion.

Is JFKerry a liar, fraud or war criminal?

He is at least one of the above, or all of the above.

So, Matt, what is it?...Is Kerry a liar, fraud or war-criminal?

Edited for content. -Z-man.

So you've ducked these...glad we got that out of the way.
Name the Republicans for me who control your above mentioned editorial boards...Name for me who their Republican journalist and commentators are (we aren't talking talk-show hosts here)...We are talking control and command Republicans.

Bring it on or eat your regurgitated spew.

LOL.
"****Matt"? original, I like it, but I've heard better.
This discussion isn't fun anymore. Im going back to work

Edited for content. -Z-man.

Can't stand the heat?...didn't think so.

Note: your name calling is uncalled for and will not be tolerated. -Z-man

"I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that."

"Or something like that"?....brilliant oration...He "didn't see personal atrocities"...except his own?

"However, I did take part in free fire zones and I did take part in harassment interdiction fire. I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground. And all of these, I find out later on, these acts are contrary to the Hague and Geneva Conventions and to the laws of warfare. So in that sense, anybody who took part in those, if you carry out the applications of the Nuremberg principles, is in fact guilty."

John "F'em" Kerry


The Vietnam soldiers who returned to a welcome home of shame, judgement, threats and being spit on will always remember John "war-criminal" Kerry for what he did to them in order to attain political office.