Just as many were being murdered by Saddam and planted in mass graves throughout Iraq ...he just did it a bit more neatly and his media friends in the US and Europe kept most of it out of the press ...So just as many or more would be eating the dirt breakfast as now...At least now there is hope and the civilians are dying for freedon...not just for the pleasure of Saddam and his evil spawn.

That is why real leaders do what is necessary to protect their people...not spend their time preoccupied with sexual escapades and trysts with interns......or on their fanatsy Vietnam heroism tales.

Hmmm... let's see: Iraq has a brutal dictator but relative 'law and order' on the streets.

We invade, killing 10,000 random civilians and conscripted soldiers, imprisoning 11,000 others.

We create a 'power vacuum' where there is no 'law and order' and there are suddenly street crimes and families executing their daughters and sisters for 'disgracing' them.

Iraqis and others fighting the 'occupiers' use all means at their disposal (just like we did against the British) and they are now defined as 'terrorists.' Well, no question car bombs and roadside bombs are not nice, but the civilians killed are maybe 1/10th of those killed by the 'coalition.'

The key point is that we created the environment for "terrorism" by invading a stable country. Somehow trying to retroactively rationalize an ill-informed invasion by citing "terrorism" is the worst kind of misrepresentation.

Gee, you could have made a great defense for Nazi Germany. They did a great job of "law and order" on the streets too.

Maybe Sadam had it right the only way to keep order in Irwreck is to bury your problems after a bullet in the head is applied...

I'm afraid that is virtually the only way to restore order...clamp down

Re: Thinking about Quackers on the Can
 

Blah, blah, blah...

The only word of any significance you use in your oral masturbation here is "culture." I imagine all you're really saying is "their" culture is currently fending off "our" culture, or does your spew have more message than that?

Look, just state the obvious: we're losing the war. That's all that truly matters.

It has to do with the land being relativily harsh in the ME and Central Asia...this leads to society and a culture that is nomadic in nature so that they can live off the land...

Bywhat standards are we losing the war? Iwreck is a mess, more people in the Islamic world aren't giving us the benifit of the doubt they once did...

Has your life style changed? The worse case is that the West turns it's back on the silly wogs...and lets them wallow in their ignorance and poverty...yeah we will be faced with the occasional attrocity but the retribution will be swift....remember the PLO leader the Israelies blew up in his wheelchair...nothin left but the smokin wheels....

Tabs, you and your cohorts better get beyond applying Iraq to the rest of the world, particularly Americans until there is an evident idea what the war on terror is and what it is producing.

Re: Re: Thinking about Quackers on the Can
 

I just don't understand how on one post we have killed tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) and have taken all of Iraq's resources for ourselves....installed our own government..we know there are now..and have never been any WMD, etc...while only losing about a thousand troops.......and we are somehow losing the war.

Re: Re: Re: Thinking about Quackers on the Can
 

Using your logic, the war was won about a year ago, when Bush declared "Mission Accomplished" and there were only ~200 dead.

Tony Blair knows there is a war...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/20/wirq20.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/09/20/ixportaltop.html

But I like this article better (and you know Bush will have been advised the same):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=TEKNYQNWYXZ0BQFIQMGCM5OAVCBQU JVC?xml=/news/2004/09/18/nwar18.xml

plus

or even

and

The cited documents probably came from the same place as Dan Rather's. I cannot imagine Tony Blair giving such classified documents to the press....can you?

I wonder what you will say when they start stacking the bodies in 100,000 lots....or 1M lots....

When it's 4th and goal with 10 seconds left in the game..U don't care if your linebacker has a broken arm or not, you need him to hold the line..it's as simple as that.

This is WW3, and the Liberals don't understand that we don't know any other way of fighting the enemy we are up against...we have a military industrial complex remember...the other thing the Liberals don't understand it's damed if U do and damed if you don't in the ME...there are no right answers..So U take your best shot at it and do the best you can...Exactly what would our Liberal friends propose as a solution to our dilemma in Irwreck..let us hear some solutions to the problems instead of always bad mouthing Amercia first...I'm tired of it boyz...alot of U on both sides of the equation have your heads up the arse...I've come to that conclusion because you always go back to the same old rants, with no changes in the tune....It's all Bushes Fault....well there was at least one other vote for the war and that was by a guy named Kerry....so if you expect much to change, except the Conservatives will be crying Kerry fked up Kerry fked up....Good Nite...I've had enough for today.

No, but I don't see him claiming they're fake either. In fact, I don't see anyone other than you claiming they are fake.

It's real - why hunt for a leak for a fake paper?

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1307907,00.html

am
I imagine you are right...they are apparently "leaked"...Hopefully they will find and hang the traitor.

On the other hand...I think their import is a bit exaggerated. For example
"The next significant memo is from Manning to Blair, describing how he told US National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice that 'if we pursued regime change, it must be very carefully done'.
I mean...like duh! Nothing like stating the obvious.

Nobody here calls those who leak memos 'Traitors'.....because they are not.

The infomation they contain is does not aid the enemy...or give them comfort.

They are leaked for two reasons
1) Because the Government itself wants them leaked, this is the case in the majority of leaks.
2) Somebody in the relevant department wants the public to know what the Government is thinking, because they feel is the right thing to do. Its illegal but since when has that stopped anyone.

In this case I feel the latter is possibly the case as its potentially far more embarassing to the Government than really daming. It rocks the credibilty boat in which TB based his support of the US.

BTW the Telegraph is more to the Right, supportive of the Conservative/tory party and the Guardian is to the left and suppoertive of the Labour Party, the current Government.

I've made the same request in multiple threads - never a response.

There is no easy answer to that one, which is precisely why so many people were against the invasion in the first place. It's a big mess. We are not in the genocide business, as much as Tabs and a few other nutcases here wish we were, so that's off the table.

The very nature of guerilla warfare does not suit our forces well, we have the finest military in the world but it is based on either "head up" fighting or dropping bombs and missiles. Every missile we deliver results in gory photos on Arab TV, and their resolve is multiplied. You can call them what you want, (and I might agree w/ you), but they believe in the rightness of their cause as much as we do. Maybe even more. In Viet Nam, they would have fought to the last MF'er. As someone correctly pointed out, victory happens when you completely crush the opponent's will to continue. That's going to be next to impossible when we are seen as Israel's weapons supplier and Muslim baby killers in that part of the world. (This is not my view, but it sure as hell is a lot of theirs). :cool:

What good is there to classify a document if anyone can leak it at will without fear of reprisal? Of course leaking information regarding negotiations between allies or info dicrediting your nation's leadership or it's allies provides aid and comfort to the enemy! Folks who divulge classified are considered traitors here.

Denis, I think everyone is in agreement that the ME situation is complex. I'm simply pointing out that there is a consistent collection of posters on this forum that continue to blame and criticise yet offer no real world alternatives. I'd love to hear your take (and Thom's) on what policies/changes the U.S. should enact. This November Denis is voted in as President. What will he do? Seriously, I'm interested and I think it would be a refreshing change from the blame game going on in OT these days. Shall I start a new thread?

Start a new thread, it will be an interesting discussion if we can "keep it clean". Like, for the first 5 posts.