On that point, I totally agree with you Sebring77. And This is why I am among those who claim that all the ressources used to go to war against Iraq could have been put to much better use. Imagine what $200 Bn could do if they were injected into R&D for fuel cells, solar, gasohol, fusion reactors, hydrogen photogeneration, better batteries...the list of intelligent solutions goes on and on. But, you have a militaro-industrial complex that paid for Bush and wants its ROI, even if it makes absolutely no sense on the long run.

Aurel

Cam said:
"The mere existence of peaceful Muslim countries makes a fallacy out of any argument that Islam is the root of the problem."

Cam, would you mind listing those for us dumb a$$es out here who can't seem to think of any? You are the perfect example of what I'm talking about, uninformed, touchey feely, wanting to believe the best about people.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7...selhoffrj8.gif

This is a test............

Large parts of South East Asia are either Muslim or part Muslim (eg India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Indonesia (mostly peaceful WRT religion), etc. Some have had (or still have) separatist problems, but by and large they're ok.

There are also parts of Africa and Europe where there aren't problems.

I think the problem is cultural - Islam's teaching may not be helping, I'll agree to that - but look at Northern Ireland. Ostensibly that was (is) a religious conflict but it isn't.

Indonesia (mostly peaceful WRT religion), :confused:

Ok, so I threw that one in there kinda hopefully.

It sort of is - I view East Timor, Aceh and Papua as separatist conflicts (which may have a religious element).

Plus, there are extremists there!!! But the Muslim population is huge, and mostly peaceful.

The solution is for the US to stop ****ting in everybody elses sandbox.

If other non-cowboy countries planted their military bases all over the US, no doubt the red-necks and howdy doody types would be attacking them until they got out.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7...selhoffrj8.gif

This is a test............

This whole idea of keeping to ourselves is naive, we've already tried that. Remember when the policy of the US was isolationism? We got pulled into a world war that cost us dearly. We cannot sit on our arses waiting to be attacked by extremists who will hate us no matter what we do. Face the fact Islam, at least extreme Islam preachs that the infidel must be killed. We are the infidel in their eyes.

We cant live in a bubble. They have been living in a bubble. . . look what happens.

Communications are a primary reason for the problem.
These guys (with wives wearing burkas) hook-up, satallite, internet. . . and go ballistic over what they see.

Then after careful, thourough "research" (wink-wink) they set-out to show everyone just how much they BELIEVE that IT IS EVIL . . must be destroyed. . .

So they come here, research(wink-wink) more decadence (strip-cubs and all) learn to fly and . ..

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7...selhoffrj8.gif

This is a test............

Are you talking about the masterminds behind terrorism or the minons who carry out the orders? After all, they (minons) are the ones who believe in the xyz number of virgins waiting for them in the afterlife.

The main issues are the U.S. presence/meddling in the M.E. and our support of Israel, and frankly, I don't see those policies changing in our lifetime.

What's going to happen inside Iran when they are surrounded by a dem Muslim Afag, a dem Muslim Pak, a dem Muslim Turkey, and a dem Israel ? go figure.

fwiw, historically all dictatorships invent an enemy to maintain social and political control of the population. Democracys never start War.

Democracys never start War.

...except pre-emptive ones?

exactly a clean reaction imo. Your entitled to your opinion of course. but you just explained what's happening here in the US Pres election. which is the personal attack on 50% of the voters beliefs over the issue of methods of warfare..

the observation of war should be watched as a big dynamic rather than a static moment imo. The associated reasoning may only be understood by the many in future generations. If the non military were more focused on the underlying economics the long term "returns" would happen sooner with greater total rewards due to the longer periods of growth.

Did you read where I posted about the guided tour groups sprouting up all over Iraq. I think it was about $250us a week for the complete package. I wonder if the model will pick up on the 10% tip that goes to the driver and group leader each? Canadain tour people just about overtly tell you about the 10% game. In Spain and Portugal they're a bit more low key... go figure

Sebring said:
"I don't think the Muslims are the problem" then he said "As far as peaceful Muslim countries, I admit I fall in to the "dumb-ass" catagory as well. Can't think of one." then he said "we have given the terrorists "incentive" to screw with us" then said "There has been lots of "collateral damage" as a result of some of our botched attempts. This has created some very pissed off people that now want to kill us and everything we represent." But he saved the best for last, "Do you guys really believe they hate and attack us just because we are "infidels" and have a smutty lifestyle that they dislike? That is possibly the most ridiculous thing I have heard on this O.T. forum to date."

Let me summarize: Even though I can't think of anywhere that they live in peace. I know that muslims are peace loving people who only commit mass murder when annoyed. The reason that they keep killing us is our fault for all the evil we have done to them like making them outrageously wealthy with oil & other stuff like that & if we will just stop pissing them off they will show us how peaceful they really are. Even though I know nothing about their beliefs & custums, let me tell you for a fact that only a fool would belive that their hatred for all people different from themselves is not our fault. It cannot possibly be related to their cultish religion & supersticious & murderous customs.

Cam said: "Large parts of South East Asia are either Muslim or part Muslim (eg India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Indonesia (mostly peaceful WRT religion), (WRONG Cam, MUSLIM TERRORISM IS COMMON IN SE ASIA) etc. Some have had (or still have) separatist (would those be MUSLIM separatists?) problems, but by and large they're ok.

There are also parts of Africa and Europe where there aren't problems." (Like the Sudan? I don't think there's much terrorism on the moon either)

So out of 1 billion peace loving muslims we can only find a few thousand living where there is no terrorism. It MUST be our fault.

Turkey is a Muslim democracy.

Let's see, 3000 divided by 1 billion would equal 0.00003 percent. Do you realize that you believe that only 0.00003 percent of muslims are peace lovings.

Michael

Ronin, you get the gold star. Turkey is a domocracy that is virtually all muslim. It is the best run of all muslim countrys. Why? Because they keep the mullahs in check & try to emulate the west. There is your correct answer, of all the muslim countries there is one, count'em one that is reasonably well run.

SO well run I might add that their democracy did not cave to the diplomatic pressure of the US in the pre-war buildup. They held emergency meetings of the legislature to decide whether or not to allow US troops to stage from their country. In the end they decided to remain somewhat neutral and not allow troops base on a close vote. I would have prefered they had voted to help us but I'm happy their democracy was strong. IMO Turkey should serve as a model for other muslim democracies.