Can't believe I missed Turkey :rolleyes:

So Mule, I provided a list ... and you said it was wrong. Now I don't believe you ;).

The separatist fighting is not necessarily by Muslims (eg, Indonesia has separatists AND is Mulsim - the separatists aren't Muslim).

Net result - I still don't think Islamic beliefs ALONE breed terrorism, and I believe peaceful existence and Islam can go together.

One possible cause of terrorism in the muslim religion is the practice of polygamy. Because it leaves aside a large pool of bachelors without hope of acesssing to females. This may be at the origin of their suicidal behavior, fueled by the promise of 77 virgins in paradise...Seriously, there was a whole article on this theory recently.

Aurel

I hear from la la land sources that they love Bay Watch. They do get sat over there.

the lack of serious anti-terrorism islam leaders is a problem.

Ronin, why is there such a lack of anti-terrorism oriented muslim leaders? Is that because of polygamy or jews or the USA or what?

all I know about a "why" is that it's a controversal issue within the muslim community and they don't want to rock the boat. They are not put under much US political pressure to take a stronger stance against terrorism besides a brief "it's wrong". The jewish issue is an itch they can't scratch because Israel has a strong economy and islam controlled countries are a failure unless they govern without religious control, such as Turkey. The islam issue in Turkey arises every so often but it's objectively controlled by all in political control there. When the Ottoman Empire failed to follow Europe's industrial revolution they couldn't compete anymore. The rest is history. Turkey has been a model of what a muslim country can do successfully in raising standards of living. Afag and Iraq will, hopefully, fine tune that model. Libya has big possibilities due to somewhat absolute control by Kadafi. He can do a Chile routine and impose his will thus avoiding controversy. Chile is still the most competitive country in South A. They have had relatively recent eco problems due to the notorious failed "think" of the world bank and IMF's raising taxes & devaluation methods.

Ronin said: "all I know about a "why" is that it's a controversal issue within the muslim community and they don't want to rock the boat."

But if it's "only a few radicals" why not slap them into line? They know who these guys are & where they live. With one billion muslims & only a few radicals this shouldn't be hard for them to solve, right?

sounds good. The past few months in Iraq was dealing with that young cleric Msomething. It was argued that we should have just killed him. The big pic was that he was a Iranian stooge trying to split Iraq. Eventually he renounced Iran and said he now supports the Iraq gov't. That is supposed to being other radicals into line.

back to muslim leaders.. There is no leader that has made it a major issue. If there was the other leaders would fall in line. Then radical thoughts would never get beyond a passing fancy and others would discourage and wouldn't support them.

Currently it seems like they want to be "middle of the road", based on No real anti-terrorist muslim leader.

Mule, I almost agree with you.

The arab nations need to clean up their own neighborhood. US shouldn't have to do it. The problem is how they do it. Sadam had control of terrorism in Iraq. His approach was harsh, but he had it under control. Saudi has it under control as well, similar approach is used but not to the extreme that Sadam used. And maybe, that's the only thing a fundamentalist understands, brute force.

Problem with all this is that both these countries create the have's and the have not's. Only in a democracy can people get ahead by intelligence and hard work. Without the ability to get ahead and create self worth, man's natural instinct is to rebel. A good leader can harness that desire to further his cause. And that's how someone can strap themselves with explosives and kill innocent children.

Michael

Ronin said:
"There is no leader that has made it a major issue. If there was the other leaders would fall in line. Then radical thoughts would never get beyond a passing fancy and others would discourage and wouldn't support them.

Currently it seems like they want to be "middle of the road", based on No real anti-terrorist muslim leader."

You make my point. There is no muslim leader (who are all "holy men") who will take a stand against terror. Now if that is true as you say it is, why will these "holy men" refuse to denounce terror. It's not the Jews or the USA or oppression or anything other than the fact that this stance is what they believe to be correct according to thier religion. And IMHO refusing to denounce beheadings & mass murder id light years from middle of the road.

Michael said:
"Only in a democracy can people get ahead by intelligence and hard work. Without the ability to get ahead and create self worth, man's natural instinct is to rebel. A good leader can harness that desire to further his cause. And that's how someone can strap themselves with explosives and kill innocent children."

When it comes to a leader harnessing desire, in the 20th century Hitler is without equal. Now I didn't say he was good, far from it. But his leadership forced the death of 20 million people in order to stop him. Even hitler as evil as he was, did not resort to strapping dynamite to his own people's children. Muslims do not do this because of leadership. THey do it because of twisted, evil beleifs taught by their mullahs & imams.

But, not all muslim spiritual leaders believe this. Only a minority. But, it's a minority that has created, nurtured, and harnessed this anger into the belief that killing innocent children is OK, as long it supports their warped belief that is serves their version of Alah.

My point is that if the Arab community would address the problems of their poor and disenfranchised in their own homeland, instead of creating the have's and have not's, and get rid of the spiritual leaders espousing hatred, the US wouldn't be in the middle of it. But many do nothing because as long as the disenfranchised hate the US and focus their anger there, then Arab countries don't have to deal with it turning on them; the real source of the problem.

Michael

Michael, you are making the same circular argument that is used by the appologists. If it's just this little minority then explain to me why the 1 billion muslims don't slap them down? If the minority has sowed their beleifs into the majority, then we are not really talking about a minority then are we? As far as them doing nothing because all the hate & anger is focused on us, thats why we need to smack the f**k out of them. Maybe that will motivate them to deal with theri own dirty laundry!

I understand your aurgument, but I think it's still a minority. They just pass off their responsibility. If however we did nothing (which includes not supporting Israel), then they would have to deal with it. US getting involved only perpetuates the problem.

Of course, this aurgument would not have worked to prevent 911. Bin Laden found safe haven in the only country where he could operate. We eradicated (at least all most) that future posibility.

I understand the desire to prevent another 9/11. I just don't feel that attacking muslim countries is the answer. The solution is to get countries to take care of their own back yard. The threat of action can be more potent than the actual action itself. After Afganistan, we had a very potent threat. We don't have that now.

Michael

Israel's wall, locking up Arafat, and decimating Hamas is a success.
IMO, put Israel's security services in charge of anti-terrorism world wide.

Right on Ronin.

Michael, if your kid comes home beat to hell. do you imidiateley seek to find out what your kid did to provoke the beating?

I get the facts! If he deserved it, lesson learned. If he didn't, deal accordingly.

But, I don't go beat up all the people that look like they might beat him up.

To Ronin's point. I've got no problem with the wall. I'll admit that at one time, I thought Israel might be the problem. I now know that they tried peace, exhausted peace even, and when that wouldn't work, they got the Palistines to turn on themselves; with some significant firepower.

Michael

Well I'm glad to see that you would treat your kid better than you treat your country & your culture. You know nothing about the culture we are at war with any you make non stop appologies for them. I thought it might be the same with your kids.

How you interpret facts are based on your frame of reference. Two people can see the exact same thing and come up with different interpretations. You interpret that we are at war with a culture of 1 Billion people. I don't see it that way.

My country and culture is of freedom, love and respect. When I read your post, I get the sense that freedom, love and respect only applies to US citizens. Not Germans, not French, not russian, only US. I was for the war in Afghanistan. I was for the war in Iraq, when I was being fed the bs that Sadam was planning for my death. Once I understood that it was a lie, I was pissed off at the person who lied to me.

Are you telling me that if someone lied to you, you wouldn't be pissed off? Or do you believe that the ends justifies the mean?

Yes, I know, I'm not going to convince you of my opinion nor you yours. But healthy dialogue is good.

Michael

Depends on what the definition of "is" is. Did Clinton piss you off?

bump. execellent thread.