What is Government?

[Superman]

To oversimplify, some folks denounce government. Seemingly somewhat of a blanket indictment.

And I notice that their elected representatives, the ones with a capital "R" next to their names, are pursuing a fairly simple agenda. Tear down government any time and anywhere you can. Throttle programs using the budget process. Their votes will reliably be cast in favor of any action that promises to reduce government or (here's the part where I want you to listen) ensure it works as poorly as possible. This way, the programs that could be hurt but not killed can be dealt a death blow at some point in the future. I've been watching this for quite some time, and it's very reliable. That's the agenda. It's as though a bunch of companies who hate regulation are running that political party instead of citizens.

Anyway, I think of government as "us." I think of government as a way of achieving shared goals. Like transportation. Like safe drinking water. Like police protection. Yadda yadda.

So, if government is society's "front office," if government is our way of protecting ourselves, if government is the legal embodiment of our "community," then what should we call the people who are tearing down every portion they can get their hands on?

The original idea was to "protect the borders, coin the money, and deliver the mail".

[Dantilla]

Government has no competition. Competition keeps private enterprise sharp. Produce, or die. Companies go belly-up all the time. Any private company that treated people like the DMV would go out of business just as soon as some evil capitalist figured out a more efficient way to get you your driver's license.

Once a Government program is started, it rarely goes away. If it's goals are not acheived, it's because there was not enough money. Throw more money at it, even if it doesn't work seems to be the government way all too often.

That being said, most government employees are hard-working, dedicated people who try to do good. But by it's very nature, the larger an organization, the less efficient it will be. Sure, there are some employees who know how difficult it is to get fired, and don't give a rip about little old Dan standing across the counter, but I think most employees try their best. When the paycheck doesn't come out of the supervisor's pocket, like it does in the real world, there is less incentive to push employees to excellence.

Government obviously has it's place. But sometimes doesn't like to stay there.

[Craig 930 RS]

The party with a 'D' builds intertwined socialist programs that are a ***** to dismantle.

As long as we have *2 parties* there will always be 2 ideologies with no 1 'right answer' -----

[Superman]

Dan, I respect that, I really do. Frankly, I've gotten very poor customer service at some very commercial businesses. And I've gotten some excellent service from public servants. So, when someone has a bad experience, is it time to throw the baby away with the bathwater? It is if you're the voice of companies hoping to make money.

And if the DOL asks for budget for enough staff to shorten the waiting lines at Licensing offices, and the R side of the aisle insists on cutting, as opposed to increasing, that budget....then I guess it's time to let someone make a profit from that? The poor folks at the Licensing window are often as frustrated as you, and are often pleasant nonetheless.

Sure, some programs should be 'looked at' in the spirit of making it work, or changing the plan. The folks I'm talking about are pursuing the agenda that it sounds like many here support. And that is to make every government office either go away or run poorly. And that brings me back to my question. What do you call someone whose agenda is to make my country run as poorly as possible?

Mark, are you suggesting these would make a good and complete list of government services? Mail, border protection and print money? Then I guess you want to buy bottled water? Or sell our reservoirs to private companies so they can sell us our water? You'll need a rally suspension for that 911 of yours if roads are not desirable.

I know it's really fun to bash gubmint. And there's lots of stories to help you, if that's your agenda. I just wonder if government is a place where we establish and defend much of what we call "society." That's where the judges are (unless you prefer anarchy in the streets). That's where the road engineers and project managers work. That's where we decide whose water we place where, and what diseases and heavy metals we should be consuming (unless you rely on rainwater for your drinking needs). And so, if government is where our community comes together for justice, infrastructure, health protection, national defense, etc. If this is government...

THEN WHAT DO WE SAY ABOUT THE FOLKS WHO ARE BAD-MOUTHING IT CONSTANTLY AND WHO ARE TRYING THEIR DEAREST TO TEAR IT TO SHREDS? Is there a name for someone who wants to tear down my country? By going straight to its heart. Government.

You hate my government? I have an alternative for you. Believe me, if your agenda is not to move to another country.... if your agenda is to tear down MY government, then I'm going to be in your way.

I think the terrorists we think we are scaring in the middle east are not as dangerous to my country as some of your elected representatives. At least, I know which direction to face to confront them. Nothing I like less than an enemy within.

[Dantilla]

I do not hate my government. It is absolutely the best one on this planet.

But does it need to be larger every year in percentage of GDP?

[Superman]

A reasoned response. Actually, I chose some words above very deliberately. I think many of the folks I argue with here are not deliberately trying to make government dysfunctional. But part of the problem is that their elected representatives very definitely are, in many instances. I honestly think they are not aware of what's really going on. The true anarchists do know what's going on, and we're "trusting" them. I'll return to something I've said many times, and something not inconsistent with your observations. Except for a normal incidence of mistakes and mismanagement (this is everywhere), it is not the administering agencies that are misbehaving. Their resources are truly being throttled by elected folks who are bent on as much destruction as they can achieve in the limited time they know they have.

People rely on government for certain stuff, and they are likely to continue. In fact, they are likely to RETURN to an understanding and acceptance and respect for the goals we are trying to achieve together. Your elected anarchists have until that day to get as much damage done as they can. And they know it.

So, what do you call someone who supports and aids people who are trying to tear down what we have built as a community? You see, we liberals (folks who understand that government has an important role to play in society) might not be the America-haters you think we are. I love my country, and I'm trying to save it from the anarchists wearing $3k suits.

[Craig 930 RS]

I believe that all government, by it's very nature, is dysfunctional - or whatever name similar we choose to apply.

[cool_chick]

Originally posted by Superman
So, what do you call someone who supports and aids people who are trying to tear down what we have built as a community? You see, we liberals (folks who understand that government has an important role to play in society) might not be the America-haters you think we are. I love my country, and I'm trying to save it from the anarchists wearing $3k suits.

I believe this is the most effective way for them to continue doing what they want....keep us busy throwing slams about the other's party and "patriotism" (totally counterproductive), and all the while, see what they're doing under our noses?

[fintstone]

Personally, I have no problem with most of what local governments do. My problem lies with the federal government taxing citizens for education, social welfare, foreign aid, etc. The federal gvt needs to stick to doing only the things envisioned by the founding fathers. Leave the rest to state and local gvt...and private charity/philanthropy.

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

Government is essentially abdicating all self-reliance

[lendaddy]

I could not disagree more with you Sup. Do I hate government, sorta/maybe I guess. I mean I wouldn't say hate, but you probably would. Government is a necassary evil, pure and simple. I feel I'm in good company.

"We still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping at the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretenses for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without a tribute."
-- Thomas Paine

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to E. Carrington, May 27, 1788

And finally a personal favorite:

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer."
-- Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776

I'll expand later

[Superman]

With all due respect, I think some of you are dreaming, including Len. I'm not going to waste the time to find quotes from considerably more renowned folks than an early Rush Limbaugh. Appeal to authority carries no logical "juice" anyway, so those arguments are tossed when logic is applied.

Okay, let's do a little exercise. I've heard say border protection, printing money and delivering mail. Fint makes similar remarks but no list. Okay, I want some of you to show me you've thought this thing through. I think of you as cussing and tossing crushed beer cans at the TV screen, so please debunk my vision. I think most of you are taking the easy path, whining about gubmint and leaving your brains in the "OFF" position. Okay. Here's a list. Tell me what things you would like gubmint to STOP doing, and how that thing is going to get done under your plan without gubmint doing it:

*Water supply
*Roads
*Regulation (anti-trust)
*Regulation (vehicle licensing and MVR licensing)
*Regulation (labor)
*Regulation (environmental protection)
*Regulation (consumer protection - this would include professional licensing to make sure folks sticking their fingers up your **** are actually doctors, making sure pharmaceutical companies don't sell you drugs that kill you, etc)
*Police
*National Security (military)
*Print money
*Money Market Regulation (The Federal Reserve rate, the prime rate, etc)
*Schools/Education

I'd welcome anybody else's additions to this list, knowing I'm in the company of almost exclusively gubmint-haters (because it's the cool thing to whine about today). But be aware that if you pretend this is all very easy, and gubmint should do almost none of this stuff, then you're going to run into a couple of problems:

Rather than drastically change the course of my country, making it into something it has not been for more than two hundred years, why don't you go find yourself a country that suits you better and quite pretending you love a country that you also say is all ****ed up? And why is it that you cannot find such a country? Why, if having a country with just a shill government is such a good idea, why does this exist nowhere? And finally, what's your plan for providing these services to people?

Time you place your ideas where your criticism is. Instead of playing the negative debate role, let's see you do the hard thing. Let's see you lay your alternative ideas on the table, and defend them.

[lendaddy]

Or maybe I'm just bitter because I have 4 days to come up with about $33,000 in property taxes or they're gonna forclose on my business?

[djmcmath]

You raise some excellent points, Superman, as usual. I would say the thing that you've really hit me with is the indictment of my failed involvement in government. I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I plead guilty to not being involved enough in what my elected officials are doing.

I'll say what I've said before -- I can't make myself believe that either R-types or D-types are anarchists or treasonous. Perhaps, even after seeing so many rapists and child molesters in this bizarre job of mine, I'm not cynical enough? Somehow, I still have trust for people on both sides of the aisle. I may disagree with the means, but I believe that both R's and D's have the same ideals of common good in mind.


As to your proposal ... well, there are some things I don't think government should be as involved in. If I was to approach "gubmint" with the same mentality as Thom and Schrup approach their 911's (holesaw in hand...)... hmmm:
1 - I'd start with the social programs. Sad to say, but everything from welfare to "faith based initiatives" has got to go. Those are all things that ought to be handled at a personal level -- churches, families, that sort of thing. Transition could be impossible at this point, but the goal seems obvious.
2 - Pork would have to be cut, clearly. Spokane Public Library came about because we had the senior guy in the House. I have no idea how many taxpayer dollars that thing cost, but it was totally unnecessary. Pork.
3 - ... Ok, I'll think of more later. Those are the first two that come to mind. Eliminate them completely (yes, it's laughable, can't be done, leaves a billion people starving, blah blah blah), and you'd save enough to perhaps make some other government functions work correctly.


Just my totally uneducated $.02,

Dan

[Superman]

Stuff needs to make sense. I'm not suggesting gubmint is always good and right. But I am suggesting that much of what it tries to do is good and/or necessary. And I am also suggesting that, since we own it, perhaps we should make sure it runs right. And stop assuming our representatives are handling the job like we want.

I grew up around rivers and lakes, and one big lake is becoming quite a destination spot. Coeur d'Alene Lake is like Heaven on Earth in the late summer. The water is nearly as blue as Tahoe, or The Carribean. The mountains are green green. Water is perfect. Lake is huge. Unfortunately, some of the families living there are having to sell because they cannot afford the taxes. Some of these properties are 4th generation homesteads. Now worth perhaps millions.

So the bad news is that they have to move. Maybe. Unless they can subdivide or find some other solution. And the homestead, a matter of family hertitage, will be lost or subdivided or something. That's unfortunate. But there's another angle too. Some folks have a difficult time shedding tears for a family that came into ownership of a property for free, and now is forced to cash in on the $2M. Cry me a river. The reason taxes are high is because value is high. So when our business volume is $2M and we have to pay $50K in taxes, we whine about the taxes.

Still while it is properly challenging for even an energetic and awake business person to make a buck, government influence, like taxes, should not close the door of opportunity. Again, we own government, and so it's up to us to make it work properly. If it's not, then take a closer look at your elected representatives.

[Superman]

I am stuck here in meetings today, but some of my colleagues will be absent from the meetings because they are in Olympia. I wish I could be there with them. Legislative hearings are public, by the way. They are free. You can sign in to testify, if you like. It's a very human, very local process. Those legislators only know what we tell them or what they tell each other. You'd be surprized at the simple bits of information that make those legislators pause visibly. It's amazing what they don't know, and what they have not considered. If anyone wants to go there to witness hearings, let me know. It's pretty easy. A shuttle is available because parking sucks. Those lobbyists have to park their cars somewhere.......

[BlueSkyJaunte]

"I would say that my position is not too far from that of Ayn Rand's; that I would like to see government reduced to no more than internal police and courts, external armed forces—with the other matters handled otherwise. I'm sick of the way the government sticks its nose into everything, now."

—Robert A. Heinlein

[Dantilla]

I recently went to a public meeting held by the Pierce County Council reguarding the new proposed shoreline environmental rules stating that nothing can be touched within 50' of salt water, and up to 200' from some areas.

The result would be hundreds of parcels instantly not buildable at all. People who have finally saved up and purchased a waterfront lot could not even clear trees to look at the water. There is an enormous public outcry against such proposals. This is one example of government being not of the people, but against the people.

Superman, you have great ideals, and you communicate clearly. But some of your ideas don't work in the real world. Kinda like Porsche air conditioning systems, I guess.

[mede8er]

The government that governs best governs least......nuf said.....