if you want to lay blame, there is plenty to go around, but look at the PARENTS. THe people of breeding age right now are smack in the middle of the "not my responsibility" era. And in fact are parents that send their kids to private schools part of the problem?

Len what school in CA only had 21 students per class....in the schools I subed in it was over 30 per class....

Sorry but those are the facts from The US DOE, what can I tell ya.

And no I'm not saying make the classes bigger, I'm saying quit lying about facts. Don't say one thing when the facts are the exact opposite. Is that wrong on my part?

Give me your county and I'll try to get you the stats.

My numbers were students per teacher, not class size. Class size has remained virtually stagnant for 35 years at a national average of about 27.

Here's the actual California data by district. Shockingly low huh.

Edit: And I will just bet MUCH lower than you had been led to believe, yes?






http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1109794117.jpg

so they are counting aides (who have limited training) as teachers to get those numbers. They are tyring to make the numbers look good, but the reality in the classroom is that they are simply dumping bodies in there as window dressing. Yes, some of them are good, but lots are not.

Len, you know the devil is in the details. Your number "lie" as much as the other ones. Sure, you can cite a source, but what the numbers actually mean (ie, context) is the real crux.

Where did I say they counted aides? What gave you that idea? Not saying you're wrong, just curious where you got that.

That's why I posted the chart above. Actual class sizes.

Facts are a b1tch sometimes, I know.

BTW,

I never said it was their fault, I'm just sayng it isn't a crutch either. The average teacher has a MUCH easier schedule than they did say 20 years ago. In fact they teach about 30% fewer kids per day each.

YHou're still looking at averages for a school and not the actual numbers. Nit picking I know but that's the truth as I see it.

My opinion is anything more than 20 students in middle school and above is too many. This isn't a crutch any more than Arnie going after them as a scapegoat.

agreed

How so? They still pay their taxes to the PS system.

One (actually, more than one) of my sisters is a teacher. She teaches special education students (and behavioral troublemakers who cannot be allowed to attend regular classes) of Jr High age. Her fiance is an aide. The fiance has two students that he attends, one at a time, each for a half-day. If he's included in Len's figures, then this would understate the ratio. And yes, there are more of these folks now than before. That is, when I was a punk (and I sure was), nobody followed a single student around all day....there was not the staff.

Parents have a FAR greater impact on students than teachers, and many parents are asleep at the wheel or worse. One of the severely disadvantages kids the fiance' attends is a little girl with many many health issues including SEVERE asthma. I was recently privy to a conversation between the fiance', the sister and another teacher regarding whether Child Protective Services should be contacted. The reason? This child who struggles mightily with severe asthma.....comes to school smelling like a full ash tray. Her parents are nearly impossible to reach, and will not attend a meeting.

And my other sisters, who do not necessarily deal with special ed kids, report the same thing. Some of the kids have parents who do not give a ****. And the kid knows that.

BTW, dealing with severely handicapped (liek autistic, etc) kids is one of the happiest and most rewarding experiences a human can have. Families who are burdened by these children.......are some of the happiest and luckiest families I have ever met.

Arnold is a dickhead.

Hey Len your on the Titanic on this one!

Arnie has just found a roundabout way to get at the Teachers Union thats all...I imagine he wants to break it's stranglehold on education like Reagan broke the Air Traffic Controlers Union...

The problem is money is thrown at a problem to fix it...and what does any Bureaucracy do with money...build denser Bureacracies...there are more Secrataries and staff than ever before...and teachers are MADE to comply with every whim that the CA Board of Education has concerning the proper way to educate children...let alone the local Boards and Administration putting pressure on them to comply...with failing programs...Then teachers have to deal with parents who drop off Johnny or Susie at what they consider to be day care....and even the best parents have abdicated responsibilty for educating their children to the school district...thinking their kids will be educated...well my kid did his/her homework why can't she read....And the poor teacher is caught in the middle of a NO WIN SITUATION....in which if they stay sooner or later just stop trying to fight the system and start collecting their paychecks..

I'm waiting for the day when the Teachers Pension fund gets absorbed into the CA General Fund...

I just feel like he's pandering to his popularity.

I find most teachers to be educated idiots...sure they got the paper on the wall thats says they're smart/ educated.... but it must be all those years of being educated that has made them think that they know it all...and your stupid....but mostly they just bump their heads against the wall like a rat in a maze on crack...

Let's blame the gubmint.

Wow. Here I remove Superman (albeit temporarily) from my ignore list because I'm really interested in this subject (politics in education) and see that he has indeed grown. He has gotten rid of the beercan/NASCAR/redneck allusions and just boiled it right down to the point. Yes sir. Such intellect.

Let's not forget to blame all these educated Educators who are enlightened in the way to educate children...and try to push their ideas down everyones throat using the latest statistics and studies to show why they are right and everybody else is wrong...Oh and we must not chastise a child for we might harm his self esteem...

BTW: I'm talking about the CA Board of ED and not Teachers

While I scanned through all your posts, I am going to add my 2 cents. My mother is a teacher and has been teaching in California for 22 years from Watts (LA Unified) to now Bellflower where she is teaching the kids that no one else wants to teach and she is helping them catch up and graduate high school with all the normal kids. The problem in my eyes is the unions. The union and the administration is a load of crap. They were given a raise 2 years ago by the state of CA but the school district decided to spend the money elsewhere and screwed the teachers and the union doesn't fight this while she still has to pay union dues.

My mom starts work at 7am in the morning leaving the house at 5am and doesn't return until after 9pm several day a week devoting her time to helping kids and making a difference. Arnold in my opinion is doing the right thing by getting after the unions and the bureaucracy. And from my mother's perspective, as I have spoken to her several times on this issue is that the some of the teachers don't do a good job and really make it bad for the whole group and the state/DOE should weed out the people that don't belong in the profession.