Because unlike you who is pulling numbers from a web site, I have first hand knowledge of the past and present of the California public school systems. I know exactly what class sizes are in Los Angeles, and the only way they could get those numbers is if they include teacher aids into the math.

Come on Len...I know you're not stupid. You know as well as I do that these numbers don't reflect the reality of the classroom. Or maybe you don't...maybe Michigan is different.

They havn't got schools yet in Michigan....

Michael Moorer is livin proof of that.....

A recent ex teaches music at a local high school, and her classes are ~ 50 kids.

The chart I posted is California government data, not from "some website". Also, class size has nothing to do with counting aides or not, those were two seperate discussions.

Now I'm sure you think I'm saying teaching is an easy job and they still manage to f**k it up, but I'm not. What I'm saying is it's a very tough job when done right and most don't come anywhere close to doing it right. Tabs hit on it when he said most eventually just give up and just collect a paycheck.

It is just like any other "work fo gov. job". It's so easy to screw the sysytem and get away with doing next to nothing that that is exactly what eventually happens. It's human nature.

Soooooo, in conclusion........most teachers are complete wastes of space and have no business in the profession. But..........the system made them what they are, people are people.

All of our politicians do. That's why they don't worry about silly things like SS benefits.

Like most everyone else I went to public schools my whole life and was/am close friends with several teachers. I can say with the utmost of confidence that most teachers do very little. Think back to your highschool days, how many of your teachers actually put forth great effort? How many simply babysat while you did "the pop quiz on page 176"?

If a teacher sucks at their job or doesn't put forth good effort, what will happen to them? Answer.....nothing, no one cares/has any power to motivate them. Hello, human nature.......hello........

Like I said I don't blame the teachers, they are just people. I blame the system.

Edit: So since there is no external motivation for a teacher to excel, I ask you if we are suppose to count on the inner motivation of people who choose this profession? Do you think that would work anywhere else in society? If you couldn't fire/discipline...say a salesman for poor performance, do you think sales would go up or down? etc...etc...

If programmers could not be disciplined for poor performance, do you think the quality of software would go up or down?
What makes you think teachers are immune from these basic human conditions?

One of the problems you are dealing with is that education is subjective and frought with emotion. The unions, to be fair, have used that as a tool. However, it is difficult to gauge the "success" or "failure" in the system simply because it is so subjective and subject to outside influences.

Despite what some may think, we have a society that is stratified. Different economic levels get different treatment. And, those with the least, often get whatever is left over.

Mike,

What I gather from what you said.... you believe that teachers are a special breed of human and as such not afflicted by basic laws human nature. I have to disagree.

You'll fix the schools when there is pressure on students to learn and teachers to teach. Right now you have little of one and none of the other.

Bureaucracies whether they are public or private have a deadening influence...they sap human iniative....

Absolutely!!!! Tabs is on fire today:)

Geez guys, why are you arguing 27.262748/teacher vs 29.4006/teacher . . trend, up/down . . ?

I can tel you both, from personal experience, that "the reality of the classroom" is; IT DOESN'T MATTER.

THis idea that some 10% fewer students will allow the teacher to redistribute that 'extra percent' for each of the other students is pure crap.

Sure, the extra 'hand-holding' of the slower students helps them grasp the concepts of the day, but it also enables them to never learn how to learn . . on their own.

so i'm saying, it doesn't matter . .. bigger classes have a nice 'up-side' too.

The only thing that I dislike about a larger class size is more papers to grade. BFD

Problem is out of the 30 kids in a class....5 don't want to be there and do nothing but cause problems which takes the teachers time from helping the 25 kids who need help grasping the copncepts..the other 5 are smart enough to get it on their own...

With todays system you can't bounce those 5 out....mussent hurt Johnnys self esteem now....

http://quimbyoak.ca.campusgrid.net/home/SARC+Report

Just a website of my local midle school where all my kids went. Average class size risen from 26 to 33 in last three years. Most teachers have BS plus.

During my 3 years as a teacher, I generally had 6 classes of ~30 kids and in 1977 I made $10,800. Went back to school, got my MS and started at $20k one year later. In California in the 70's, one needed a BS from College of Letters and Science to get into the post graduate education/credential program. Since I had a BS in ME, I had to get another BS from L&S to become a teacher. I believe that requirement has changed so a BSME would now get one into the credential program. That is an improvement.

Something interesting in the reported percentage of students at or above level when you look at racial background. Asians way higher than anyone else. Typically, asian parents value education far more than any other group and make their children study harder than anyone else. So maybe if Arnold wants to have a test to ascertain someone's fitness to teach, he should start with the parents fitness to raise children.

http://www.esd.k12.ca.us/pages/salary.html
Here are salaries. Upon review, they are being better paid proportionally to a starting engineer than 25 years ago. That is good. Benefits are about the same as engineers working for establishment firms like Lockheed. If I retired from Lockheed, I could go back to teaching, as I have life credentials and earn about 40% of my current pay. I will probably consider that.

Did not readily find retirement benefits.

Steve,

Did you notice that the paid benefits on top of the salaries was over $21,000 a year??????? Like I said, make a Teamster blush:)

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bring benifits down to the same level as equally paid white collar professionals. I mean really, who gets 50% of their paycheck and full benifits for life after retirement? No wonder starting salaries are so low..
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That's also the same retirement plan for the military. :)

I have sat in the deserts of Saudi. Some of those teachers have sat in intercity schools.

I think I may have been safer...

Thank you to the teachers!!! I'd rather be hanging on to my M-16A ducking in a bunker.

Lendaddy, I think I need to clarify what appears to be pricy benefits.

On health benefits
1 and 2 year teachers get $600 per month, 3 - 23 year they get $800. AT 24 years they get $2000. The next column over shows the current costs of usual benefits at ~ $750-1050 per month.
So they can chose Kaiser and come out about even. I think I can do almost the same at Lockheed.

Another 4% is paid to the state for workers comp, medicare, etc.
And 8.25% goes into retirement fund for all teachers. Not sure exactly how that is paid out.

Most of my relatives are or were teachers. Most of the people I spend time with are or were teachers. They are all intelligent, hard working people who are motivated by teaching the kids. None of them fit the stereotype of being lazy, disinterested, etc. The primary problem they face is not lack of funds or oversized classes. It is the juvenile delinquents that disrupt the classroom. Five percent of the students consume 75 percent of the time. Eliminate the punks and performance (at least around here) will rise dramatically.

My kids go to private school and it's not because of public school teachers, it's because of public school criminals . . .