Sup,

For some reason reading your post reminded me of my grandfather.

Happy jovial guy, kinda like Sgt. Shultz.

He never yelled or lost control and when my brother and I got out of hand all he had to do was give us "the look".

Something about it told my brother and I that we'd gone to far and we never had the guts to push it and find out what would come next.

Oddly enough with my father we knew the belt would come off in the blink of an eye but it really did nothing to keep us in line.

Scott

you could have rubbed his face in the puke. seems effective to me.

you guys wait, this generation i have started calling the "time out generation" is my sisters life. she is in juvenile probation and you guys would not believe the things kids are doing. these are not kids from the "ghetto" either. these are middle class kids that have no respect for ANYONE or ANYTHING. these kids will be out of control adults that society will be dealing with for a long time. reasoning with kids is not discipline its a merry-go-round with most, especially boys. hell my folks used to sign the permission slip for the scholl personel to spank me. gave them permission to whoop my ace. circa 1970

i am not advocation hitting a child, there is a fine line between spanking and beating. i was spanked about 100 times as a kid and only a handful hurt, and i can't remember one i did not deserve. the real pain of being spanked in a store or resturant was the humiliation i felt have it done in public. only my pride was hurt more often than not. knowing pops, or mom for that matter would break out a can of whoop ace on me anywhere kept me in line most everywhere. 13 or not the kid had one coming for turning mom on you like that, i still think rubbing his grill in it would have been best. hell my dog quit pissing in the house using the rub face method.

good luck and i think you meant well but lost it a bit when the misses got involved.

and moses, where were you when pop was spanking me for rubbing dog S on the handrails of a school stairway at the tender age of 17? by the way pops is one of my very bestfriends today, spankings or not.

Okay, having said what I said, I'll also say this: Becoming furious is normal, and can easily be caused by a child deliberately being disobedient. Also by whining to mom. but worst of all, mom taking sides with the kid against dad. That's over the line, and the conversation which included the kid would stop at that point. the next conversation would be between mom and dad, and mom would need to understand the very important principle that at times like these, she needs to stay out of it, or get a thicker skin. You absolutely cannot show any division in the parenting unit whatsoever. Mom and dad absolutely must be of one mind. And frankly, as chauvanist as it may sound, when dad puts his foot down, that's the end of the decision-making phase. Period. If mom never is made to understand this, then there will be major problems.

So, I understand your frustration.

I disagree that a slap (those came from mom:)) is "beating", but to be honest the physical stuff probably won't change a kid once they've hit their teens. You should probably find another way to teach him respect and humility now.

My brother and I were raised "very physically", pretty much everythng short of closed fists. Blood was drawn and welts were common. We were excellent kids (polite and respectful) compared to most and we owe alot of that to the discipline. Neither of us "hate" our parents or ever did, we all work together actually. When my brother got out of the Army he thanked my father for the hard upbringing because it kept him from becomming a "piece of ****" like many he had met along his way.

Now that I have a son will I raise him the same? Not if I can help it. Take from that what you will.

I hope I can find a better way, but my parents way did work.

I don't necessarily think this has to be chauvanist. I've had a side bar with my wife after correcting my daughter and adjusted discipline as a result of her input.....and her the same with me. Two way street. Because my wife and I decided from the start that this would be our approach we can almost predict (and trust) how one will react and correct.

My dad, (rest his soul) when I turned into an obnoxous teen and backtalked, did this:

He made a fist the size of a 10 pound ham and positioned it inches from my nose.

"You will respect me and do what I say for one of two reasons: Because you respect me or because you fear me. It's your choice."

It worked. I made my choice and as I finally grew into an adult, my father and I became the best of friends.

Two extracts to put it in perspective.

"Beating an adult is assault, beating an animal is cruelty but beating your child is discipline."


"Battered children will batter others, punished children will act punitively, children lied to become liars themselves, protected children learn to be protective, respected children learn to respect others weaker than themselves. "In the short term, corporal punishment may produce obedience. But it is a fact documented by research that in the long term the results are: inability to learn, violence and rage, bullying and cruelty, inability to feel another’s pain, especially that of one’s own children.... unless there are enlightened, or at least helping, witnesses on hand to prevent that development."

Alice Miller, Ph.D., author of For Your Own Good - Hidden Cruelty in Childrearing And the Roots of Violence.

Hmm, I guess I'm the exception to Ms. Millers rules:)

FWIW, here is my take on the matter:

My father told me that he brought me into this world and could/would if necessary take me back out of it. That said, I earned an occassional whipping. Slapping a child is a lack of respect, spanking on the rear is different and is a form of respect. Yelling at the child/spouse is a lack of respect as is their yelling at you.

If I had EVER dared yell at my Dad or Mother or flatly refuse to clean then I would not have been able to sit down for quite some time. I never dared that. I found other ways to annoy them! :-)

Child SHOULD have cleaned the mess when found. Period. For them to do otherwise is not proper. I assume this is a family pet not one where one person is the sole caretaker. The child should have done as told and not griped.

It is none of my business and I expect no answer but do your children have chores they should be performing? Do they mow, clean, cook, do the laundry? Do they really know that it is everyone's house and everyone's chore to keep it nice? This teaches them self reliance. I had to work around the house. Even my mother (who had her own servant when a child) had to work around the house and clean up after herself. When society fails to provide direction to it's children then society falls.

I also love the statement from my in-laws neighbor:

Why are yall doing yardwork and why are you making the 10 year old work with you outside? I'd never have my children do anything. I've got a maid for that and I hire Mexicans to do the yard. That is what yall should be doing.

I never spoke to them again.

Anyway, if your children do not have household responsibilities, if you slapped your child in the face, or if you have not made up with your spouse then yes you are. If your children have chores and responsibilities, you spanked your child, and you make up with your spouse then no.

Of course, people think I'm an a&& quite often.

You are right. Junior should have listened to you to begin with and not gone off to mommy. Sorry, but mom should have backed you up and had junior do what you had told him to do. I would have dragged him outta bed too and walked him over to clean up fido's mess, thanked him for it and put him back in bed. Your wife would be pissed at you if you would have gone against her in front of the kids.....Why the double standard? You have the God given authority to discipline your children, not beat the crap out of them.

Before you never spoke to them again, I hope you told them a few choice words! I am sure their kids were sitting inside, watching TV.

I have three kids. They are not perfect and neither is thier dad. My wife and I would never, ever interfere with each other during an "issue" with a wayward kid. Why? Because she knows that no matter how much "parenting" our kids need, I won't be hitting our kids in the face.

Maybe some wives feel the need to protect the child and make excuses for them because they fear the wrath of the father.

Very subtle and ingenious.

Not really. I type with three fingers. Two on the right and one on the left. When a short word has an "e" and an "i" in close proximity, it's pretty much a race between my two index fingers to see who wins out. I'm right handed and frequently the right finger gets the jump on the left, with disastrous results.

I really should proofread more. I don't particularly mind being thought an idiot, but an idiot that can't spell?

They look more like "findings" to me.

I think the kid learned that if he wants to get out of something unpleasant, all it takes is a little loud yelling and mabye a quick smack or two. No biggy. Plus he gets rewarded/praised by playing on the girls-against-dad team for a while.
He's thinking dad doesn't really care much about him because he wasen't willing to deal with him as a thinking soon-to-be adult, only as an object that wouldn't immediately function and started using the BFH right away.

Dad should have followed kid around and given him so much logical mental grief that it would have been easier to just do it. Then, dad should have helped kid do it and shown him the task was easy and that he cared. Next time he's asked he might even feel pride at doing a job.
And mom should have STFU, but that's typical of most of todays moms.

Then she shouldn't have used terms like "will". Perhaps may or tendency to would be more accurate.

Your son was wrong in not cleaning up the mess.
Your wife was wrong in a) saying she would clean it up b) not backing you up.
You were wrong in a) hitting your 13 year old son b) going out for a couple of beers.
The only saving grace that I can see is that you posted this thread asking for validation or criticism. I think there are a lot of issues that need to be worked through, from your son's attitude, to your wife not backing you up, to your hitting the boy, to anger management - as well as going into damage limitation mode to repair your relationship with your son. Or is clipping him one the way you resolve things together? Maybe you should talk it through with your wife and then discuss it with your son as well?
I can understand that some kids can only be dealt with with corporal punishment but a smack across the mouth, especially to a 13 year old is wholly inappropriate. If I had ever done so to my daughter when she was 13 I would have risked; my husband anger, ruining present and future relationship with my child as well as revenge on her part at some opportune moment - don't forget your kids may be choosing your retirement home;)
Like all parents I had to raise my voice sometimes but I never found it necessary to use a slap after about 4 or 5. Maybe it's easier with girls?

Hey Isa, was thinking about you when i read Motions thread about the cat.

Whatever happened with you and the chickens?

not so subtle, and yet still engenious.