separate security lines for first class?

[island911]

Yeah, nothing gets past the Israeli security . . . except shoulder fired missiles.

[Superman]

Israel is probably the world's most popular terrorist target, and there has NEVER been a successful hijacking of an El Al flight. That's how effective their airport security efforts have been. Some say that, pound for pound, the Israeli soldier is the best on the planet. Those same folks say our guys are pretty good too.

[island911]

Originally posted by Superman
Israel is probably the world's most popular terrorist target, and there has NEVER been a successful hijacking . . .

yeah yeah yeah . . .though we need to forget this trying to prevent the last terrorist attack, and start preparing to stop the next one.

Again, 9/11/01 -flt93 demonstrated that hijacking a plane of passengers is no-longer viable.

All of these TSA efforts are about stopping the last type of attack.

[Neilk]

Originally posted by island911
yeah yeah yeah . . .though we need to forget this trying to prevent the last terrorist attack, and start preparing to stop the next one.

Again, 9/11/01 -flt93 demonstrated that hijacking a plane of passengers is no-longer viable.

All of these TSA efforts are about stopping the last type of attack.

I agree 100%.

First class fares tend to be a lot more expensive than cattle fares and subsequently so are the taxes paid on those fares. So if they go to the front of the line, they paid for the privilege.

I fly coach btw.

[island911]

Originally posted by island911
. ... except shoulder fired missiles.

I just saw the national news (NBC) had a piece on this. They say instuctions are on some alqaeda website.

I can only hope that we have some sharpshooters in and around our airports. . .among other deterents.

. . or should we be taking fingernail clippers away from grandma.

[1973911s]

As a frequent flyer, those lines rock.

Michael

[Shuie]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
As long as the "rich and famous" are getting better treatment by the TSA, nothing is going to change.

Huh?

I started a new job last year that requires me to fly 4 legs weekly. It didnt take me long to get enough status to start getting auto upgraded to 1st for no extra money on almost every flight. I have never been allowed in a priority security line yet. The only special treatment I ever got from TSA was the 'random' full security search everytime I deviated from my normal flight by changing airlines. I sat across the aisle from Little Richard on a flight from Memphis to Nashville one time, but thats the closest thing to a famous person Ive ever seen on a commercial plane. I sit next to the same working class people every week on their way to jobs that are similar to mine.

Flying commercial sucks for everyone. 1st class, or in the middle seat of a bulkhead row next to the fat drunk guy in coach, I have never been treated any different than anyone else on the plane. They treat us all like they are hearding cattle, I just get more legroom and a quicker exit to the parking garage in 1st. Sometimes I get pretzels if its a smooth ride and the waitress is in an OK mood

My favorite part of the airport experience is getting behind an unseasoned traveller in the security line who manages to lose his/her boarding pass during the 5 minutes it takes them to take off their shoes, unpack the laptop, remove their belt, jewelry, get everything into the bins, and run it through the screener. Nope, nobody ever lets me cut in front of that guy.

[MFAFF]

It seems as if the the security over in the US is a 'federal' occupation....so unless the airlines pay for a separate line then all should shared..perhaps more lines would help...

Over here the security is run by the airports who are funded by the airlines...so there are separate lines for First/Business and the rest....Not that it makes much difference in terms of time as there are so many business folk, all of whom feel they are more important than any other and hold every thing up...mobiles etc etc..

Oh the joy...

Thankfully I don't have to deal with it any more...

[Eric Coffey]

Originally posted by MFAFF
...so unless the airlines pay for a separate line then all should shared..

They do, just like over there. The airlines pay to have those lines in place.

This is how I look at it:
The TSA doesn't/shouldn't care "who is being screened when", just that ALL are screened before boarding. The airports and airlines should/do dictate the "layout" and who gets to be screened first.

When in airports or aircraft, you are in private establishments that have their own policies. They can create and enforce those policies as they please, as long as all of the regulations/laws are observed.

As far as airport/airline security as a whole, IMO (simplified):
The bottom line is that the chances of another successful airline hijacking on US soil is extremely slim. If the newly-educated (post 9/11) passengers didn't get to the hijackers first, the newly-armed pilots would blast `em. The bad guys know this, and have focused on other "ideas" I'm sure. DHS needs to shift their effort$ elsewhere, like the borders for instance.

[MFAFF]

Eric,

Fair point..

Who is the TSA funded by? Is it general taxes?

The point I was trying to make is that in the UK the airlines pay directly for all airport services except Immigration and Customs/ Police.

So they pay directly fot he screening and so determine its layout/priorities....

I understood the security screening in the US was federally funded.

[304065]

Steve,

Actually, there's a pretty good reason why there's a separate line for first class. It's so the airlines can differentiate between types of service and further justify the higher prices for those tickets.

Far from being a bad thing, this differentiated class of service is pure margin for the airline (or nearly so: first class catering isn't free and you could carry a few more coach passengers with the extra space), and is the last bastion of travel comfort for the business types who pay last-minute "walkup" fares, and who purchase refundable, changeable tickets.

Since Jimmy Carter signed deregulation into law, the airline industry has been in a perceptible decline, with 20% of the market operating under Chapter 11 at any one time and therefore able to enjoy an artificially low cost structure. The result has been greater downward pressure on fares, and the industry as a whole isn't making it. Air travel, while democratized, has replaced the greyhound bus in terms of price AND quality of the experience.

If you eliminate differentiations in class of service for first class travelers, you remove the incentive to use airlines, and away goes the higher-margin business. Since the introduction of fractional jet shares in the last few years, more and more business travelers are turning to private jets. No TSA, no mingling with tank-top-wearing sweathogs, no schedule issues, availability of suburban "reliever" airports, point-to-point navigation at FL 410 or higher where traffic and weather are minimal. . . and the list goes on.

So, if you want to further erode the margins of the airlines, just eliminate their ability to offer higher-priced services. Cutting the first class line is a step in that direction. Pretty soon, conditions will get even worse, and yet the Bush Administration (AND Clinton's, for that matter, before any of you lefties get up on your hind legs) has FAILED to pull the plug on two-and three-time Chapter 11 filers, which would result in a permanent reduction in capacity, and therefore the ability for a price increase, which airlines desperately need.

Economic growth ain't driven by people hopping on Song and jetting down to Wally World. It's driven by entrepreneurs who recognize that business relationships aren't forged over the telephone. If you make it harder, you cut back economic growth, which hurts everyone.

[rcecale]

Originally posted by Superman
I thought we'd have Israeli security experts on American soil by COB on 9/12/01. Not so I guess. Quite an efficient "administration" I've noticed.

Supe,

There are far too many people, from both sides of the aisle, who would not stand for the "inconvenience" this would cause. But I'm sure you've seen the intolerance of some travelers when just their baggage is delayed a flight or two.

I haven't travelled on El Al, nor through, Israel, but I hear it is quite an ordeal, sometimes lasting days, just to get through the terminal.

Randy

[Drago]

Originally posted by Superman
Ah, capitalism. Kinda raises questions about what group is more equal than others. Life, they say, is like a ***** sandwich. The more bread you have, the less sht you eat.

And we can all reach the brass ring, or so goes the defense.

So, there is something wrong with that?

Sup, you've met me...I'm a pretty big guy and I don't fly all that often. I don't fit in the coach seats at all so when I do fly I save up my pennies just like everyone else...'xcept I have to start saving earlier to afford to sit in a seat that doesn't make my legs go numb. Plus, I like "free" booze.

[stevepaa]

I have had a hard time finding any good funding data for the TSA. But it does appear that much of the funding comes from General Funds-whatever that means.

But a couple of points to consider;
Most economy revenue passengers are individuals who have paid for their ticket from their own pocket from funds taxed by the US government.
Many first class passengers are business travelers traveling on economy tickets but have received an upgrade to first class because of mileage programs, and those first class passengers have not paid a single cent out of their own funds. The companies they work for pay for those airline tickets, a tax deductible expense, and the fares paid by companies are less than paid by the individual non-business revenue passenger.

So the non business traveler and the rest of the US taxpayers are really paying the bill for this privilege given to people who haven’t paid a single dime of their own money for the travel.

[304065]

Steve,

First, any first class free upgrade isn't costless, it's factored into the price of all the miles you fly. You pay for it in the form of higher prices for all the goods and services you consume. If you disagree, query the last time somebody gave you 100,000 free miles without buying anything.

Displacing a revenue passenger for a mileage upgrade is a real expense to the airline. Lately, when you travel, you usually hear "first class has checked in full."

There is absolutely no support for your assertion that the fares paid by companies are less than those paid by the individual pax. Travel agents sometimes get a discount, but that's available to anyone who does enough volume with that agent. It's overwhelmingly the case that the refundable, exchangeable ticket is more expensive than the nonrefundable one you buy four weeks in advance.

Finally, your premise is incorrect. The lions' share of TSA's $5b operating budget is derived from fees on each ticket.
http://www.tsa.gov/public/interweb/assetlibrary/FY2006Budget_Brief.ppt

What about the case of those taxpayers who, thanks to the confiscatory progressive tax system, end up paying more taxes, both on an aggregate basis and a percentage basis, than others? I know a few folks in town who pay about 50% of their income in taxes. Should they get the red carpet?

[stevepaa]

John
Most business travelers do not pay out of their pocket. Frequent flyer business travelers get the upgrade from their miles which they never paid for.

It is plainly the case that discounted business fares are less than non-business fares. I do have support for that. SJC to SLC next week April 5 return April 7, corp nonrefundable fare $265.50 on Delta, Delta web site non refundable fare $278.40, same flights.

Your statement that refundable is more costly than non-refundable is obviously true.


I'll relook at the funding issue. thanks for the link

[stevepaa]

If everyone is footing the bill via extra costs for those first class upgrades, the flyer isn't really paying for it. Everyone is

[stevepaa]

Okay, looked at funding. The great majority comes from passenger security fees. I looked back over my flights, most ecomomy, but some first, and the corp paid the same fee each time. There is no distinction between first and economy for the security fee. So again I ask, why the special privilege when they do not pay anything different for the service rendered.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally posted by stevepaa
...So again I ask, why the special privilege when they do not pay anything different for the service rendered.

They DO pay extra for that special privilege (whether it's directly via higher 1st class ticket prices, or via frequent-flyer upgrades). The individual or company pays the airlines for that privilege, the airlines pay the airport to accommodate that privilege.

It seems that you are confused as to what the "service rendered" is though. It is NOT the screening itself. It is the expedited matter in which that screening takes place. Now if the screening itself was different for first class passengers (say, if they weren't required to take their shoes off when all the other passengers were), then there would be a problem.

[stevepaa]

Eric
I guess we are talking past each other.

Sure first class revenue passengers pay more for their ticket. That gives them special service on the plane.

Commercial airports are owned by local governments, I think. And the surcharge for TSA is the same for a first class passenger as for an economy passenger. They do not pay anything different. They do not pay for the privilege of a separate screening line. Why should they get it?