Any Private Pilots?

Danskman · 04-13-2005, 08:44 AM

Considering taking flight school to get my Private Pilot's certificate. Anyone on the board with any experience in this area? Took an introductory lesson last week and it was pretty cool.

djmcmath · 04-13-2005, 08:57 AM

I had a room-mate go through that process, and more recently a friend finished his instructor school. It's a lot of fun, but a pretty expensive hobby. But then, if you're into Porsches, you're already ok with expensive hobbies, right?

Seriously, until you get qualified to fly alone, you're paying for plane rental, gas, and instructor time for every single flight. Then you're only paying for plane rental and gas -- still painful, imho. The basic license, of course, is just for single-engine simple-landing-gear daylight-navigation (VFR) flying. No instruments, no fast planes, nothing funky. Getting that basic license is really just a license to get the other add-ons.

There's at least one professional pilot on the board, and a few others that have direct personal experience. I'm sure they'll chime in.

Dan

304065 · 04-13-2005, 08:58 AM

Roger.

There are few addictions more pure and satisfying than aviation. As you have discovered, once you have the bug, there's no going back.

What did you do, just a lap or two around the pattern?

jkl · 04-13-2005, 08:59 AM

Not as much fun as driving a Porsche fast, but still a kick in the a$$. I have over 20,000 hours in the air--happy to answere any questions. John Legate

Danskman · 04-13-2005, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by john_cramer

What did you do, just a lap or two around the pattern?

I did watched a DVD for about 35 minutes, and then we went up for about 50 minutes in a Cessna 152. I flew the plane for just a few minutes. It was pretty fun.

The majority of the cost to go through school is for the plane rental. I'm looking at going in with a friend of mine with the same interest on a 150/152 trainer. Makes sense to put that money towards a purchase instead of rental fees.

motion · 04-13-2005, 09:06 AM

I'm going through my flight training right now. I have about 17 hours down here at John Wayne and am a lesson or two away from my first solo. Its a helluva good time, but can be frustrating and its not cheap. I've learned that having the right instructor is the key to success and happiness.

Danskman · 04-13-2005, 09:09 AM

Richard -

Did you have a bad experience with an instructor and have to change? Honestly, I wasn't thrilled with the guy that I went up with, and if I end up going with that school, probably won't use him.

rcecale · rcecale's Garage

I have a whopping total of 1.4 hours logged in an F/A-18D, with a little more than half that time having control of the stick. I can personally guarantee that the 45 minutes I spent "punching holes in the sky" was much more fun than ANYTHING I have done in my 911.

Aileron Rolls, Max Climbs, Turfing Clouds...my heart beats faster just thinking about it!

Randy

Joeaksa · 09:39 AM

One thing that anyone wanting to get their license might think of doing is to dedicate a few weeks to getting some training in a school.

I trained for a while at a small flight school and found that doing an hours flight a week was just not going to work. Was forgetting half of what I learned and needed to either fly more each week or stop. Ended up stopping for a few years (after solo) and taking it back up later when time permitted. That was 32 years ago and have been flying for a living the last 26 years.

What I am trying to say is that you might think of finding a school, spending a week or two at a facility and do nothing but fly. There are many good schools around in Cali, Arizona and Florida to look at. Also, flying out of a large airport, you tend to spend a lot of time waiting for other aircraft, which gains you no experience and wastes money.

Find a small airport and go there for more quality flight time and less time spent "holding short" for take off clearance. The other important thing is finding a place to fly where you are not kept on the ground by weather, and the above places usually are clear most of the year.

Regarding the instructor. If you do not get along with him/her, get someone else! Another problem these days is that most instructors are moving up in the food chain and some students end up having several before they are signed off for their checkride. Another reason to go to a dedicated school and take a few weeks and do it all at once.

Joe A

PS if you guys want to fly in a REAL airplane, get with John Cramer or myself. We both fly old fabric covered taildraggers and that is REAL FLYING! I rarely go over 500 feet and enjoy seeing what is going on around me. John's airplane is made to fly upside down and he wrings it out from time to time I hear!

Mine is over 50 years old and straight and level is just fine for me. Fly a fast jet for a living but enjoy my old taildragger on days off as its just for fun, and low and slow.

motion · 04-13-2005, 09:34 AM

Mike, Joe is right... the right instructor is paramount to your success. Otherwise, flight training can be an extremely frustrating experience. I'm not sure where you'll be learning, but here at SNA, stuff is happening all around you when you're flying. The instructor must be able to communicate with you, not raise your frustration level and get you to absorb all the info he's saturating you with.

Danskman · 04-13-2005, 11:09 AM

Yes, I believe the right instructor is paramount. Regarding where to learn, I've kicked that around a lot. My office is a stone's throw from the runway at a small airport here in town. (061) No tower. I have some friends that fly out of here, and a couple of them learned here and are too intimidated to fly to a "big" airport. I don't want that to happen to me. I'm considering Sac Executive since it's a bigger airport with a tower and some traffic, but no commercial airlines.

Richard - what type of plane are you learing in? High/low wing? 2/4 passenger?

Tim Hancock · 04-13-2005, 11:35 AM

If you decide to do it, go all out, do not spread it out over two years, get it done in 3-6 months. If you spread it out you will end up spending alot more money because a week or two break will cause you end up repeating training.

KNS · 04-13-2005, 12:02 PM

I used to instruct years ago, find somebody you get along with. You would probably be better off learning at smaller airport. If the engine is running you are paying for every minute, you don't need to be sitting there, number four, waiting to take off. Don't let the big airports intimidate you, the training will cover all that stuff after you get the basics down. I did my private airplane rating flying once or twice a week and it took nearly a year. When I started flying helicopters, I went to a dedicated professional school. Each has there pros and cons but I enjoyed both.
If you went on a Demo flight with an instructor and paid for 50 minutes, you should have at least got to fly the thing for more than a few minutes (unless that's all you wanted to fly for).
Have fun!!

onewhippedpuppy · 04-13-2005, 12:03 PM

http://www.learntofly.com/

Just a suggestion, it's a Cessna sponsored program, they certify the schools that conduct their curriculum. All the ground school is available on CD-Rom if your schedule doesn't work for classroom training. One plus, most of the schools are supposed to use new to newer Skyhawks, so you won't be flying crappy equipment. They also offer financing. It's the route I plan to take when I have the time, I had hoped for this summer but now it looks like I'll be taking a full load of summer school. It's always been a dream of mine, I've been flying in my grandfather's Bonanza as long as I can remember, plus I'm an Aerospace Engineering student, so it'll eventually help my career.

KNS · 04-13-2005, 12:15 PM

A little more on the Big Airport/small airport thing. If you are learning at a small field, and you are wanting to get more experience in complex airspace, say so! That's what you are paying your instructor for. Tell him you would like more training in the thick of it (once your flight time is appropriate). If he is unwilling, find someone else. That is, you don't need to dump your primary instructor, just ask for someone who is more comfortable in those situations.

onewhippedpuppy · 04-13-2005, 12:17 PM

Mike, something else to consider if you're considering purchasing a plane. I don't know what instruction + plane are around you, but here it's only $89 for a 172 + $30 for instructor. The maintenance costs for a plane make a Porsche look free, a magazine I recently read said to budget between 10-20k yearly for maintenance and repairs on a single, depending on what you buy, the hours you put on, etc. Of course, this is having a mechanic do it all, but there's a lot of stuff you can't do on a plane without an A&P license. Plane and Pilot has an article on buying a plane in this months issue, might be worth picking up.

motion · 04-13-2005, 02:26 PM

I would really recommend learning at the busiest airport you can find. Yes, you will spend extra $$ idleing in line for clearance, but the experience is invaluable. After learning at SNA, I'll be able to fly anywhere, no problem... piece of cake!

Mike - I'm in a 2002 Cessna 172. My flight school is a little pricey - 172s are $128 per hour, but the equipment is top notch. No way in hell would I learn in a crappy, old 152.

Joeaksa · 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by onewhippedpuppy
Mike, something else to consider if you're considering purchasing a plane. I don't know what instruction + plane are around you, but here it's only $89 for a 172 + $30 for instructor. The maintenance costs for a plane make a Porsche look free, a magazine I recently read said to budget between 10-20k yearly for maintenance and repairs on a single, depending on what you buy, the hours you put on, etc. Of course, this is having a mechanic do it all, but there's a lot of stuff you can't do on a plane without an A&P license. Plane and Pilot has an article on buying a plane in this months issue, might be worth picking up.

I did this exact same thing and came out like a bandit! Bought a C-150 and two of us got our private licenses out of it. Flew it another 200 hours then traded up to a C-177 Cardinal. Flew it long enough to realize that it was time to quit my mega bux job and go back to school. Sold both airplanes for either a profit or no loss and flew them for years to boot.

Then spent two years in Douglas Arizona, right on the border with Mexico, getting my aircraft mechanics license and EMT/paramedic training. Came out of there and got a job 3 days later twisting wrenches on planes. Six months later got a job flying night cargo. One year later was flying copilot on a 4 engine Viscount hauling rock n roll stars around. 18 months afterwards jumped in the right seat of a Learjet and the rest is history...

One trick on paying for aircraft maintenance is to find an A&P who wants to fly. Partner the plane with him and trade him maintenance for flight time. He pays the fuel cost and works on the plane in exchange for using it.

There is nothing like getting paid (and very well I might add) to do something that you would do for free, and love to do day in and out as well. You tend to walk around with a smile on your face a lot more, kinda like I did today when I took the 911 for a spin!

Motion, not to disagree with you but you get a lot more money's worth flying at a small airport then heading to a larger one to get used to the traffic. Start out at a larger one to get used to it, then move to a small one where you fly all you want to, not waiting at the hold line or flying holding patterns waiting to get worked into the pattern. That costs money and you do not learn anything from it.

If any of you guys on the left coast want to get together let me know. We are doing trips to Carlsbad, San Jose and Vegas in the next month and can give a tour of the jet and talk flying for a while.

JoeA

air-cool-me · 04-13-2005, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Makes sense to put that money towards a purchase instead of rental fees.

bad idea... the cost of a 150 may look cheap... but to keep it working is BIG $$$

right now i am working on my multi...

i agree with flying out of a big airport.. you learn to deal with traffic...

right now i am attending ERAU www.erau.edu and the flying is great!

304065 · 04-13-2005, 04:05 PM

Own vs. Rent? Mwahahah!

Fellas, I don't make a trip to the men's room without running the numbers. So when I decided to buy my Citabria, I built a pretty detailed spreadsheet, that included things like cost of capital, escrow for engine overhaul, escrow for instrument overhaul, annuals, oil changes, fuel costs, insurance and hangar. And about 20 other variables that you wouldn't even think would enter into aircraft ownership.

The breakeven point, expressed in hours, between owning my Citabria and renting a similar one (a 7ECA) was about 100 hours per year.

Which, if you and a buddy are getting your tickets, and live in an area like the desert southwest where there are hundreds of VFR days per year, is entirely reasonable.

Unfortunately, reality reared it's ugly head: I'm embarrassed to say how many actual hours I put on the Citabria last year, but it was nowhere NEAR 100. Which means that economically, it's cheaper to rent.

Now, who can put a value on knowing that YOU were the last one to fly the airplane? That was pretty important to me, especially when you consider that it's an aerobatic airplane-- you do NOT want the guy before you pulling 9g when he botches a snaproll, and then not mentioning it. My Citabria has metal wings, new spars, new covering, etc., and most rentals tend to be pretty well-used. So that's a factor.

All in all, I'm not saying don't buy an airplane, but I am saying, make a very realistic assessment of your hourly usage, then cut that number in half and run it through your model. If it works out, great!

And wait just a damned minute, how dare you fellas bust on the C150? It's the PERFECT training airplane. . . particularly if it has a turquoise/brown paint scheme, manual flaps, and smells like a mix of engine oil and vomit. Now THAT's renting!

Also, you don't need no fancy GPS. Pilots today are encouraged to learn situational awareness by looking at pictures on a box. Not good: someday that fancy box is going to take a dump, and you'll be DEAD. Learn it the old-fashioned way, by looking out the window with a sectional chart. I'm not talking about dead reckoning, with a chart, a compass and your watch. Just your eyes and the chart. Once you've mastered the "OK, there's a lake that looks like a goat's head, and here's a lake that looks like a goat's head on my chart" THEN you're ready for "OK, I've been flying for 1 hour on a magnetic heading of 090 and I estimate the wind correction angle using my E6B to be seven degrees and therefore I'm somewhere near Goat's Head Lake." Then ADF. Then VOR. Then, and only then, should your hand reach for the power switch on the magic box.

And keeping your eyes out of the cockpit, particularly if you are learning to fly in California, is a GREAT idea for traffic avoidance. As my Grandfather (Private, 1952, Instrument Instructor, Boeing Airplane Co. -1982) was fond of saying, "Better a stiff neck than a broken one."

This was a fun thread. . . .Approach to Land Photos