Choices have consequences - Page 4

gaijindabe · 04-26-2005, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 350HP930
The low pay provided by most public schools guarantees poor teachers.

If you want to fix the major crux of the problem its pretty simple but too many cheap selfish bastards are against paying more into their public education systems.

I would argue it is the low starting pay... Those that sick it out are quite well paid, have excellent benifits and retire at half pay. Not bad compared to the white collar world around them.

The old timers control the unions and bleed the systems dry!

It is not only a money problem - I lived in Japan that is supposed to have such good schools - they had rickety wood framed buildings and coal stoves in the classroom.

expat · 04-26-2005, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gaijindabe
I would argue it is the low starting pay... Those that sick it out are quite well paid, have excellent benifits and retire at half pay. Not bad compared to the white collar world around them.

The old timers control the unions and bleed the systems dry!

It is not only a money problem - I lived in Japan that is supposed to have such good schools - they had rickety wood framed buildings and coal stoves in the classroom.

Agreed! Good points.

island911 · 04-26-2005, 11:34 AM

Enron CEO's would have been much better CEO's . . . if only they had been paid more.

stevepaa · 04-26-2005, 11:50 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gaijindabe
[B] Those that sick it out are quite well paid, have excellent benifits and retire at half pay. Not bad compared to the white collar world around them.[B]

Actually, there are not "quite well paid". Go to the website for your local school district to see pay schedule. Benefits are the same as white collar world.

[B]
The old timers control the unions and bleed the systems dry!
[B]

What does this mean other than being a good sound bite?

lendaddy · 04-26-2005, 11:57 AM

To continue to beat the dead horse, I resolve everything to human nature. There are some very basic reasons people are motivated to do better or more tomorrow than they did today:

Businessman- power (self determination), greed, recognition, money, fear (total loss/humiliation) , etc..

Laborer- money, security, fear(termination)...

Fireman- recognition, *wild-card*

Teacher- I got nothing, I mean seriously...maybe shame?

*wild-card: This is something that I could not find the words for. It's that feeling inside of not wanting to let those around you down. You'll find it most in soldiers. You'll also find it in policemen and firemen. When a soldier runs through enemy to help a fellow soldier he isn't doing it for money, security, fear, or any of the other reasons above, it's unique. I would almost call it love but that's not right either as a fireman will run into a burning building for someone they've never met. Anyway, those are the extreme examples of the "wild-card" motivator. You can find them to a much lessor extent that you would almost confuse with competitive-spirit (say during training exorcises). Oh well, hope that didn't make sense to only me

lendaddy · 04-26-2005, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevepaa
[BActually, there are not "quite well paid". Go to the website for your local school district to see pay schedule. Benefits are the same as white collar world.
[/B]

Same as what white collar world? You've got to be kidding! Maybe 30 years ago, but not anymore. No one gets pensions anymore....NO ONE! And regarding healthcare, etc... still not close, can you find some that are similar, sure. But on average it's two different worlds my man.

Superman · 04-26-2005, 12:09 PM

I really hate to do this but as a labor relations person and former compensation analyst who is addicted to organizational behavior discussions, I probably agree with Len, Island and others. Workplace motivation is as interesting as sex (almost). I probably would downplay salaries as a huge issue, though there is some impact, no doubt. They may be related in terms of status.

Most of the teachers I know are devoted. And frustrated and not fully appreciated. Some of them are true professionals who can tell you what is needed (within the realm of possibility) in order to deliver an effective education. Unfortunately, parts of the solution would involve the parents. And there is where some of your criticism could be well-placed, frankly.

One of my daughters reports that a particular student's lunch, each day without variation, consists of two cans of pop and three or four candy bars. This kid is in the seventh grade. Now, let's see a show of hands, of people who would like to volunteer to try to teach this person something in the afternoons. Or even have him present in a room where teaching will be attempted.

There is another kid who is, and for years has been, completely consumed by how to commit the perfect murder, how to destroy all the world's computer systems at once, and other similar topics. This kid's attention cannot be diverted from these topics regardless of the techniques used by the teachers and the school. There is no money or other resources that currently can bring this young man into contact with a mental health evaluator or counselor.

If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.

But anyway, I digress. Yes, "OB" issues in the education system are interesting, and improvements can be made. Interestingly, on the cover of a recent edition of a local newspaper, there were stories of several local school closings for budget reasons ($20m shortfall) next to a story about a $2b transportation funding package being passed.

island911 · 04-26-2005, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
.. ..

Teacher- I got nothing, I mean seriously...maybe shame?
.. .

how about; stability (how many jobs have tenure locks)

how about; the same reason you are here posting here to school others. (?)
Teachers get to interject values. . . .ones of their choosing. Think "subversive liberal' here.

gaijindabe · 12:13 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stevepaa
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by gaijindabe
[B] Those that sick it out are quite well paid, have excellent benifits and retire at half pay. Not bad compared to the white collar world around them.[B]

Actually, there are not "quite well paid". Go to the website for your local school district to see pay schedule. Benefits are the same as white collar world.

[B]
The old timers control the unions and bleed the systems dry!

What does this mean other than being a good sound bite?

Steve - we beat this to death in a previous thread. Most white collar workers do not retire at half pay, and not with full benifits..

Teachers that have been in the system a while do quite well. Maybe not stockbroker well - but they never get laid off either. That is a huge perk you might not have considered..

As for the unions - ask the old GF. She (a new teacher) enlightened me to this issue. Young teachers in NYC realize the same level of benifits is unsustainable - and see those retired and soon to retire as bleeding the system dry... They resent the older teachers and dont think these end-loaded perks will be there for them.

stevepaa · 04-26-2005, 12:25 PM

Yes, we did discuss this, but I see the same misinformation again.

Um, yes, white collar workers do get good retirements if they stay in their jobs 30 years.

Teachers get paid far less than you imply. Teachers do get laid off.

The other issue seems to be funding for retirement. Not that older teachers are actually doing anything other than getting older.

stevepaa · 04-26-2005, 12:28 PM

Joel
We went thought this on benefits earlier and I showed that they get the same as me.

Pensions still exist, even for new hires.

lendaddy · 04-26-2005, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by island911
how about; stability (how many jobs have tenure locks)

how about; the same reason you are here posting here to school others. (?)
Teachers get to interject values. . . .ones of their choosing. Think "subversive liberal' here.

lol,

What I meant to get at is: what makes you want to get better at what you do, or simply to do more/better/faster. I understand why teachers would want the job, what I'm saying is, that once they have it there is no primal motivation for them to do it well. It's not their fault, and I'm not saying they are a special breed of losers, or anything like that. They simply get caught in a system that fails to motivate. And I'm not saying any motivation is good motivation either. I mean greed is "bad", but it can be harnessed for the greater good as well.

Sup said teachers feel unappreciated, and I can understand that. The system doesn't allow it. First the customers (you & I ) have no way to measure their performance and also no way to convey any appreciation even if we had some. It's just a ****ty system.

Most other professions are different. Do your job well and it helps/benefits those you work with and they'll usually let you know. I just don't see how even something that simple can happen for teachers.

I don't have the definitive answer on how to motivate in the school system, but I know zero motivation won't work.

NOTE: There are exceptions to everything I've said. Some parents will pay enough attention to tell when a teacher is doing a good job and convey it to them. Some teachers are able to create their own internal motivation and excel because it's all they know how to do...these are special and rare people.

island911 · 04-26-2005, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
. . .
Fireman- recognition, *wild-card*

.. ..

Firefighters have a WAY better gig than teachers. WAY more time off, and only 25 years to full retirement. They even get paid while they sleep!

. . .talk about zero motivation to work.

gaijindabe · 04-26-2005, 12:38 PM

misinformation? Retirement today is a lump sum. Those benifits and pension ties are cut my man. Teachers laid off? How often do school districts merge of close down?? As for as new teachers - you will have to ask them. I did not make this up, and I have never read about it in the media. The new ones resent the low pay and they blame the old ones.

lendaddy · 04-26-2005, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by island911
Firefighters have a WAY better gig than teachers. WAY more time off, and only 25 years to full retirement. They even get paid while they sleep!

I tend to agree, I have a couple buddies that are firefighters. BUT....again I was not stating the motivation to take the job, rather the motivation to do it well once you have it.

island911 · 04-26-2005, 12:46 PM

So just what are the metrics to measure firefighters performance?

They have what motivation?

Quite the opposite.

Nobody says 'oh , that fire could have been put out faster, with less smoke.' . . . and if the firefighters screw-up and kill themselves (a bit worse outcome than those teachers can manage) then the reaction is given some perverted Hero lable.

stevepaa · 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gaijindabe
misinformation? Retirement today is a lump sum. Those benifits and pension ties are cut my man. Teachers laid off? How often do school districts merge of close down?? As for as new teachers - you will have to ask them. I did not make this up, and I have never read about it in the media. The new ones resent the low pay and they blame the old ones.

My district handed out over 900 pink slips, because of budget shortfall. When it is all over probably 20 teachers will be let go.

Yes, they resent the low pay, just as I did. They blame the older ones for acquiescing to the low pay. So what's new here.

"If you qualify for early or normal retirement you may be eligible to continue medical during retirement. The coverage provided and the cost of the plan may be different than your active employee coverage." Retirement is still available, and it is not a lump sum, but a monthly amount with health benefits, but you will pay more for the medical benefits than when you worked.

lendaddy · 04-26-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
I tend to agree, I have a couple buddies that are firefighters. BUT....again I was not stating the motivation to take the job, rather the motivation to do it well once you have it.

Yes I'm quoting myself...I'm that vain

No seriously this hit me after I typed it. Everyone wants to pay teachers more thinking it will change dynamic of people entering the field. I agree! 100% it would! However it would not change the quality of teaching because you have STILL not given them a motivator to do the job well once they have it. If they are great at what they do they wont make any more than if they aren't, so why strive for greatness?

Just increasing the pay scale won't solve a thing. We need to motivate AFTER employment.

lendaddy · 04-26-2005, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by island911
So just what are the metrics to measure firefighters performance?

They have what motivation?

Quite the opposite.

Nobody says 'oh , that fire could have been put out faster, with less smoke.' . . . and if the firefighters screw-up and kill themselves (a bit worse outcome than those teachers can manage) then the reaction is given some perverted Hero lable.

Again I tend to agree, you're just much more bold

But there is a brotherhood there, these guys really don't want to let each other down either day-to-day or when the **** hits the fan. Maybe some of that is fear of being looked down on or fear of not being respected, but I still think there is a spice there that's not normally found.

lendaddy · 04-26-2005, 01:08 PM

Steve,

I agree teachers are laid off, though they are usually on a hard list to get their job back when/if availible. But they never get laid off because of anything they did or didn't do (unless criminal), so it's not a motivator for them.

If the city says cut 40 teachers, they cut the last 40 teachers hired even if they were the best 40 teachers in the district.