Choices have consequences

[CamB]

So to summarise, (nearly) everyone thinks teachers aren't accountable and their performance isn't really measured, and that this means they don't do a good job.

I don't agree 100%. Way back up the thread, someone alluded to mediocrity in many areas --> it's true, and I'm not sure anyone would argue. Most corporates are full of people who more or less just punch their cards. In many organisations the link between actual hard work and receiving benefits from an incentive scheme or promotion are often tenuous. I think a lot of it is that people (parents, rightly so) place such a huge importance on the outcomes of education - and they feel they don't get it. I guess teachers are under the spotlight in this sense.

Which raises an interesting point. The standard ways of incentivising are threat of termination, potential to earn bonus, or the chance to be promoted.

Teaching (and nursing - in fact, much of the health sector outside doctors - and I would imagine a whole lot of other professions) don't really have the possibility of bonuses (because of the impossibility of measuring performance and allocating profit (if any) against it) and aften pretty flat pay increases with promotion. Really, its only prestige and responsibility.

So, if the way to incentivise a firefighter, or a policeman, (etc) is in many ways through having their service recognised, why are we - society, everywhere - so down on educators?

[nostatic]

in a society where people generally do not take responsibility for their own actions, teachers are a very convenient scapegoat.

Are they perfect? Of course not. But they also aren't the overarching problem. Take a look at the parents first. Then look at the system. You want to know why most good teachers quit? Becuase of idiocy like "no child left behind." They have little or no control over the curriculum in the classroom. The latest fad in "accountability" means another round of biased, ill-designed standardaized test that they have to teach to.

[expat]

I'm hopeful that Flint. can now see how hard it is to suggest measurable and effective tools that value (not applaud) teachers' work.

My opinion on education generally

- Increasing pay will only add incentive for new people coming in

- Teachers in the system for 10 years or more don't have any incentives other than intrinsic (self actualizing)

- Good schools usually have Principals who haven't given up the fight for looking at every individual kid and their personal needs and finding ways to support teachers to meet the needs

- Good schools have a culture amongst the staff of caring about every kid (almost as if they were your own)

- Poor/good teachers can be identified by observations, interviews and work logs by people trained to understand the dynamics of classrooms, pedagogy and the interplay of human motivation (of both teachers and students) and the environment (home/district) in which the school exists.
THIS ONE WOULD COST MEGA BUCKS TO STRUCTURE, ENSURE UNBIASED POSITIONING, AND YEARS TO IMPLEMENT.

- Appreciation (from parents) can be as simple as saying a genuine thanks!!!!! If I heard that once a month I'd be surprised. If I go to my accountant to get my tax papers filed, I'll either see him and say thanks or email him! I show the guy at the 711 more appreciation than I get from most parents.

- The reward for teachers often, is KNOWING that you have reached the kids in some way that has elevated them to a new level. Many teachers won't know this though as it's hard to measure (both in influence and degree).

- Put all teachers on a 5 year contract/terms/tenures with six monthly reviews with their Principal. It might not move the bad teachers out too quickly but I am sure it would raise standards. Unfortunately this may act as a threat but that's pretty much how most industries work. Hell I have been on yearly contracts all my working life (25 years). It's not the greatest feeling in the world but heh...? The cost would be enormous again and the Principal would be consumed with looking through portfolios etc. It's not like you can pull out a spreadsheet and see the amount of widgets being produced/sold.

Some ideas...always more...many not very workable

[fintstone]

I agree with much of what you posted...but competition is still the answer.

[350HP930]

Who do you suggest should be competing fint? Education should be a right, not a commodity.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by 350HP930
Who do you suggest should be competing fint? Education should be a right, not a commodity.

Education is a great thing to provide to one's citizens...but certainly not a right.
Obviously my point was that there should be competition between schools (both public and private) for tax dollars instead of the current monolithic, monopolistic system where mediocrity(not meritocracy) is rewarded.

[fintstone]

Well it has been almost 15 years since we discussed public education in this thread. It seems that most of the arguments are the same. IMHO, things are even worse today (and we have done little or nothing to improve). Note that the prePARF discussion is much more civilized...which indicates to me that the split may not have been the best idea...and perhaps that some of our newer posters have taken things downhill a bit (apparently, folks here once had ideas, not Cheetos jokes and name-calling).

So, what is better/worse now in education? have we solved the problem...or was there never a problem?

[legion]

It has festered and gotten worse.

And now, we have children being taught "social justice", which is neither.

And teacher pay has gone up quite a bit in 15 years, probably outpacing all of the others on that list. Teachers in my area start around $55k. When you look at it on a per-hour basis, it's now probably one of the highest paying professions you can get into right out of college. But there is no accountability with that money, so the bad teachers push out the good.

[nota]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Education is a great thing to provide to one's citizens...but certainly not a right.
Obviously my point was that there should be competition between schools (both public and private) for tax dollars instead of the current monolithic, monopolistic system where mediocrity(not meritocracy) is rewarded.

so the nut-con's want religious schools funded with taxes
as that is exactly and only what this BS is all about

want better teachers
let students grade teachers
they are the people in direct constant contact with the teachers
and know who is a good teacher and who is not

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by nota

so the nut-con's want religious schools funded with taxes
as that is exactly and only what this BS is all about

want better teachers
let students grade teachers
they are the people in direct constant contact with the teachers
and know who is a good teacher and who is not

Who said that anyone wants to fund religious schools (even though our last President attended one and did very well for himself)?

Let students grade teachers? LOL...and inmates grade guards?

[rattlsnak]

Originally Posted by legion

It has festered and gotten worse.

And now, we have children being taught "social justice", which is neither.

And teacher pay has gone up quite a bit in 15 years, probably outpacing all of the others on that list. Teachers in my area start around $55k. When you look at it on a per-hour basis, it's now probably one of the highest paying professions you can get into right out of college.

Exactly. I have several close friends who are over 6 figures as public teachers. AND they get full retirement after 20 years.

[fintstone]

I am much less concerned with teacher salaries than less than proper education. It seems to me that funding and administration of schools should be local rather than per the Department of Education.

[legion]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I am much less concerned with teacher salaries than less than proper education. It seems to me that funding and administration of schools should be local rather than per the Department of Education.

That power has been usurped, very purposefully, for several reasons:

1) The only way to force schools to teach things like "social justice" is to make them unaccountable to parents.

2) Teachers are well aware that their high pay, massive amounts of time off, low accountability, and low barriers to entry (low education requirements of teachers) are dependent are on education funding being awarded at state and federal levels (once again, not being accountable to parents).

[tabs]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Who said that anyone wants to fund religious schools (even though our last President attended one and did very well for himself)?

Let students grade teachers? LOL...and inmates grade guards?

Why respond to nutz FINT?

[tabs]

Come back Nostatus...we love you...we miss you..

[tabs]

In America's infinite wisdom with standardized testing etc it has bureaucractized and made education into an assembly line process. In other words a one shoe fits all sizes model. The failing in that is that each child's education is a individualized process. Everybody learns at different speeds, has different talents and inate intetests.

[tadd]

Actually tabs, the one shoe size fits all was the best. IMHO education went south when we started stratifying education. In the one room school house the smart kids helped the slow ones. The smart kid got the benefit of truly learning the subject and the slow one got more time and help than just the single teacher can provide. Plus everyone got a sense of community from helping.

Pulling out the smart kids just made it harder to help the slower ones and make them feel 'special' and entitled... a local magnet school is a very small pool to pull from people wise. Teaching freshman chemistry to incoming college kids was always an awakening to the students. Vanderbilt brought in top notch kids from all over and was a big eye opening. What was 'easy' in high school once you start playing with everyone else being top performers, isn't so easy anymore.

Charter schools will never work because they can self select. Public schools are REQUIRED to take and educate the dross. Private are not. Until society is ok with leaving a large segment of its population behind, ~33% just on raw statistics, we will not fix schools.

I'm almost to the point that I would do away with all schools. There should only be schools paid for by business, government, and the wealthy. Those that need educated labors should pay for them. Just more socialism for business.

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by tadd

Charter schools will never work because they can self select. Public schools are REQUIRED to take and educate the dross. Private are not. Until society is ok with leaving a large segment of its population behind, ~33% just on raw statistics, we will not fix schools.

Which is why Republicans have such a hard-on for charter schools and vouchers; they want their kids educated, and to leave the rest behind to be wage slaves and cannon fodder.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Just to throw into the conversation and create discord before I go away:

Let us say a Teacher earns $30,000.00 per year.

Works 19 pay periods (38 out of 52 weeks or 9.5 months of the year) which is $1,578.95 per working pay period.

27 pay periods in a year? Works out to $42,631.58 as the effective annual salary.

Work is designed to be seasonal (around the requirement to plant and harvest), pay appears to be designed to be seasonal. Did I pass my Maths?

[tadd]

^^^^

Excellent point. Schools should go to year around. Forget this summer vacation crap to help bring in the harvest. A Two weeks around X-mas/new year, a two weeks mid may, and two weeks later summer.

That way you don't fight the stupid that comes from being off that long. Gotta reteach everything.

Other problem is that school is just considered day care rather than education. Unfortunately I think we have gotten so used to full access to education that we don't cherish it like we should. I'm not sure how to fix that... keeping perspective while providing benefit to society.