The Pit and the Pendulum

[mikester]

The GOP accuses the Democratic party of supporting Liberal justices who legislate liberally from the bench yet when they want to appoint conservative judges to legislate conservatively from the bench and the Dems try to block it they cry foul. I don't really believe that ALL of the liberal judges are legislating from the bench though I will not say there are those that do not. It's the same thing - If you fellas were out there trying to nominate someone reasonable who wasn't going to do this then I would be crying foul on the democrats stalling but that isn't the case - oh and historically speaking with this senate if it were the judge would have already been approved. You aren't trying to get these judges in as much as you're trying to ensure that when the president appoints his "judicial legislature" ...er..I mean judge to the next supreme court opening that you get whom ever you want regardless of the other 49% of the country.

Yeah.

Hypocrites to the last.


Personally I feel that if a judge cannot be broadly accepted then he shouldn't be appointed so I have no problem with a minority - republican or democrat doing what they can to block them.

[island911]

for those who can't read between. . .

I think the "transportation infrastructure problem in Western Washington" is VASTLY over-blown, in an effort to extarct EVEN MORE money, beyond the Billions of suplemental tax $ for transportation.

Understand, there is no way in HELL that the transportation infrastructure projects are underfunded here. Yet, they continue to find ways to extort money, in the name of the perpetual problem.

[Superman]

No kidding. Let me see if I can ask the question more clearly:

Do you think there is a transportation infrastructure problem in Western Washington and if so, will the money for improvements come from a source other than citizens?

I'll also be interested in whether you feel those measures (RTA, Monorail) are appropriate. And then there's the shakedown remark that leaves me wondering if you're one of those folks who incorrectly believe that Eastern Washington tax money pays for Western Washington services. But I don't want that right now. Right now, I just want to know if you think there is sufficient transportation infrastructure in Western Washington.

[island911]

Originally posted by Superman
N. . ..
Do you think there is a transportation infrastructure problem in Western Washington . . .

Western Washington !? . .d'ya mean Seattle ?

To put it bluntly (which you will leverage later) No, I don't think that there is a transportation infrastructure problem in Seattle, which is not already being addressed. (prior to the new gas tax . . . prior to the RTA boondoggle)


But this is about your post and Jeffs parot-post about how the gubmnt is losing . . .the pendulum will swing . . . Eyman will have a third "$30 car tab intiative" . . . it will pass a third time . .. our arrogant "representatives" will find a away to defeat it for a third time.

How long can that go on? . ..the Pit & the Pendulum.

[Superman]

Originally posted by island911
for those who can't read between. . .

I think the "transportation infrastructure problem in Western Washington" is VASTLY over-blown, in an effort to extarct EVEN MORE money, beyond the Billions of suplemental tax $ for transportation.

Understand, there is no way in HELL that the transportation infrastructure projects are underfunded here. Yet, they continue to find ways to extort money, in the name of the perpetual problem.

Ummm, how much do you think an ordinary freeway overpass costs? You seem to have a strong opinion that there is PLENTY of money for all we need. I've heard whining about how it takes twice as long to plan a project as it does to execute it. That is true. There are civil engineer here, and they will tell you that the last thing you want your gubmint to do is to award a construction contract before the planning has been completed. Can you say "change order?" So yeah. Planning is where you SAVE money.

Freeway overpasses run probably anywhere from $10 million to $30 million. Maybe more. Experts seem to be in agreement that we are somewhere near TWO HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS behind in our transportation infrastructure here. A billion is a thousand million.

You can pretend this is just outrageous and untrue, but you'd be wrong. I think you just don't like to pay taxes, and blaming others is complaining, which is fun and which is sometimes thought to be intelligent. No, I'm not giving you any back-handed or front-handed insult. If you truly think that there is plenty of money to achieve our transportation goals here, then I'm very interested in your basis for that opinion. I know you don't like gubmint or taxes. I don't like taxes either. But I believe they are necessary and I support my community and its needs.

[Superman]

Oh, and by the way. Is "Seattle" going to be the next obscenity? Like "Liberal?" Candidly, as you probably know, the economic activity in Seattle and its resultant tax base funds projects all across Washington State. Your local roads are as good as they are because of Seattle's commercial muscle. If you want, we can starve Seattle for necessary commercial tools like transportation infrastructure, but you'd be one of the big losers if that happened. I get hammered for being anti-business, but this is exactly what business is crying out for. Commerce needs to NOT have its trucks stuck on I-5 all afternoon. And it is, indeed, largely those commercial concerns that I'm going to bat for when I launch into these diatribes.

[island911]

Originally posted by Superman
Oh, and by the way. Is "Seattle" going to be the next obscenity? Like "Liberal?" . . .

Well I don't know. Liberal Gobnr Chris G. seems to be avoiding the word Seattle . . .euphemistically using "Western Wash"

. . .isn't Kitsap in Western Wash?

But of course the big bux are in Seattle, so lets just wink & nod; and say "Western Washington"

[island911]

Supe, explain to me the logic of BILLIONs for a short-run TRAIN !

explain to me the logic of moving MOUNTAINS (your seatac POS project) for a third runway . .. when the REGION would have been better served by giving Everett, and all up North an international airport at the EXISTING Paine Field (where the big planes are born) !?

All those people must drive THRU Seattle to get to the in-crowd controlled SEATTLE airport.

Explain those, buddy.

[island911]

While you're at it explain why the traffic-clogging Marineers stadium was built, by your gubmnt, AFTER the voters REJECTED the idea.

is baseball a right?

I think that you are blinded by your gubmnt can do no wrong ideal.

[Superman]

I shook my head when the stadium decision was made.

Is Boeing going to abandon the largest building in the world and stop making 747's and 777's? Whole new international airports are even more expensive than adding a runway. There was talk about another airport in Thurston County, but I think that would have been silly. Mostly the anti-runway stuff you've heard has been sour grapes from folks here who would like us to detonate Sea-Tac and rebuild in someone else's backyard. But if Everett wants and needs a facility, then that's a good discussion. The need for another runway here would probably still exist. In our private lives, it makes sense to build excess capacity. Not sure why it would not make sense in the public sector.

I'm not afraid of the term "Seattle" even if Christine Gregoire is. On the other hand, "Seattle" might not be as accurate as "Western Washington." On some days, Island, stop and go traffic extends southward through south King County, completely through Pierce County, through Thurston County nearly to Lewis County, half way to Portland.

[island911]

Originally posted by Superman
I shook my head when the stadium decision was made.

Is Boeing going to abandon the largest building in the world and stop making 747's and 777's? Whole new international airports are even more expensive than adding a runway. . ..

abandon? - no. share? - yes.

Tell me, the third runway . .. that is a stream of dump-trucks dumping, 24 hrs a day, for how many YEARS?

and what does that do to our roads?

NO WAY does that 3rd ruway cost less than getting Everett going. That was just BAD regional planning . .. driven by greed and power-bases.

[island911]

Originally posted by Superman
. . . On some days, Island, stop and go traffic extends southward through south King County, completely through Pierce County, through Thurston County nearly to Lewis County, half way to Portland.

Right. And how does spending Billions on a short-run train thru Seattle help this? -- it was bad planning.

[island911]

The Alaskan Way Viaduct is sinking, not due to earthquake damage to the structure, but due to letting the sea-wall, that holds up the dirt, that holds up the Viaduct foundation, go to the worms . .. it has been neglected. -- Bad Planning!

SO now we get to have a Seattle BIG DIG . .. . and what will happen to theose hundred ot thousands of cars that use that every day?

Right, they will be routed to I-5 . .. where the traffic for the mariners games will be. .. .where the traffic for the Seatac airpot will be.

I'm sure the idea is to clog I-5 so badly that the voters can be TOLD the even more money is needed . . and WILL be extracted.

[Superman]

Originally posted by island911
abandon? - no. share? - yes.

Tell me, the third runway . .. that is a stream of dump-trucks dumping, 24 hrs a day, for how many YEARS?

and what does that do to our roads?

NO WAY does that 3rd ruway cost less than getting Everett going. That was just BAD regional planning . .. driven by greed and power-bases.

That's an intriguing idea for a regional airport. Sharing with Boeing. Might be a good idea, and perhaps it should get looked at. It looks as if it would be cheaper than our runway. Certainly cheaper than our whole modernization project.

Two shifts, when weather permits, but not 24 hours. Still, it is wear and tear on our roads. It's 850,000 truckloads.

So, we agree on some stuff. But the remark about bad regional planning and greed, well that is a remark that would be appropriate after quite a bit of fact-finding that I'm not convinced has been done in your case. Truth is, Sea-Tac airport passed its capacity a few years ago. It was designed for something like 25m passengers per year and we hit something like 27m a few years ago. It needed to be expanded. Or, again, build an entire new airport. Colossally expensive. I don't believe that sharing Payne with Boeing would have satisfied this (Seattle) region's growth. Lots of folks looked at this and considered many options. They firmly believe that good stewardship of public funds was achieved with this decision. To disagree, one would have to understand the decision, the alternates and the criteria/consequences. They are complex. I work with folks who seem to be doing the best they can. But maybe they made a mistake by not phoning you. Oh, wait. There were public hearings. Nevermind.

[Superman]

Originally posted by island911
Right. And how does spending Billions on a short-run train thru Seattle help this? -- it was bad planning.

In my mind, the jury's still out on the train thing. I'm not convinced, but then I'm also not knowledgeable enough to draw a conclusion. I like the impact that public transportation options can have, but making those systems work well (ridership) is not easy. But it is important. It's important to be able to get those minimum wage workers from their cheap homes outside the high-cost areas, into those high-cost areas to make inexpensive burgers for the rest of us.

[island911]

Originally posted by Superman
. .. It's 850,000 truckloads.
. . .

So how many years? . ..at 1,000 loads per day, everyday (like that will happen) A bit over TWO YEARS!

so, come on now . .. .you told me how many millions are in a billion . .so how many YEARS is this expected to take? (to move a mountain. . .east-coast sized mnt

[Superman]

Originally posted by island911
The Alaskan Way Viaduct is sinking, not due to earthquake damage to the structure, but due to letting the sea-wall, that holds up the dirt, that holds up the Viaduct foundation, go to the worms . .. it has been neglected. -- Bad Planning!

SO now we get to have a Seattle BIG DIG . .. . and what will happen to theose hundred ot thousands of cars that use that every day?

Right, they will be routed to I-5 . .. where the traffic for the mariners games will be. .. .where the traffic for the Seatac airpot will be.

I'm sure the idea is to clog I-5 so badly that the voters can be TOLD the even more money is needed . . and WILL be extracted.

Who is the conspiracy theorist here?

I appreciated the information you gave one day about the sea wall. I checked it out and you are correct. I'd additionally say you are correct in asserting that bad planning is everywhere. If we could have preserved it, great. Shame on us if we missed taht oportunity. If if not, at least we could have been ahead of the curve in terms of repair/replacement. But the voters are so scary and they believe taxes are not needed and our Legislature has been fairly conservative during that exact same time period. At this point we all agree we're way behind the 8-ball. And it looks like you are aware that the needed improvements are going to be excruciatingly painful. (I think they're planning to run AWV traffic through downtown somehow. Still, not pretty.) We should have started twenty years ago.

The Big Dig is in question. It'll be wildly expensive. On the other hand, it would eliminate the eyesore/obstruction of a raised freeway right between the world's most charming city, and the sea.

[Superman]

Originally posted by island911
So how many years? . ..at 1,000 loads per day, everyday (like that will happen) A bit over TWO YEARS!

so, come on now . .. .you told me how many millions are in a billion . .so how many YEARS is this expected to take? (to move a mountain. . .east-coast sized mnt

Actually, it started three years ago or so, and won't be completed until 2008. But it's not as if we're hauling all that time. There was a year or so when we did not haul at all. And I've never heard of a 24-hour plan. We're currently running about a hundred trucks a day I think, fifty per shift over two shifts. It's something like 16 million cubic yards altogether.

But again, Island, sometimes it sounds like you take the very most easy road in these discussion. Point out how large and expensive it is, and then conclude it's idiotic. Yeah, it's big. Yeah, it's expensive. But what's really expensive is a hundred thousand people sitting in their cars parked on the freeway for an extra hour each day, and businesses deciding to bag their Seattle operations until we get our you-know-what together. It's like getting old. It seems like a bad deal until you consider the alternative.

[island911]

Originally posted by Superman
. . . At this point we all agree we're way behind the 8-ball. . . .
The Big Dig is in question. It'll be wildly expensive.

Well, I know that when I'm finacially behind the 8-ball, I find it best to spend extravagently. Why buy take a bus when someone is selling new Porsches?

"eliminate the eyesore/obstruction"
So you don't like the view, driving the raised freeway right between the world's most charming city, and the sea?

100+ thousand people who work and live here, enjoy that view every day. You think that we ought to take that away . .. so the tourist on the waterfront can . . .?
. .. or is it the big$ realestate guys that you would like to see get a big boost in property value?

[island911]

Originally posted by Superman
. .
But again, Island, sometimes it sounds like you take the very most easy road in these discussion. Point out how large and expensive it is, . . ..

No, those points/roads are the minutia.

The bigger point is ..

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
And Gregoire and her gang don't seem so good at building bridges, or consensus. There's a divisiveness in our state's politics right now, and I just wonder if there are any liberals on the Board who understand why that's not going to play well for your party. There's paybacks, and then there's the likelihood that this nasty, in-your-face, because-we-can arrogance is going to help turn the pendulim around.

Frankly, I understand how my state needs both voices in Olympia. But just as frankly, I can tell you that when the pendulum does swing back, there is going to be some pain that I will enjoy watching. This is the nastiest, most arrogant and most offensive (not just to Washington conservatives, but to most of the Western world's population) state government anyone has ever seen. They're asking for it. Anybody think they can avoid the end game I know will come?