Need Insight with the Unions

[M.D. Holloway]

I need some help - info on the workings or Unions, mostly Ironworkers, UAW and Teamsters. I'm looking for insight on real world storys and the dynamics of the unions and the politics. You don't have to respond on this thread, but you can e-mail me at mhollowa@nch.com if you can help. I will tell you why I need this info if you want - just e-mail me.

Any info provided would be appriciated! THANKS.

[M.D. Holloway]

shameless bump

[VaSteve]

Post it here. I've been meaning to ask about unions myself. I am a white collar professionnal working in DC (few unions). I travelled to Baltimore for a trade show and saw they had union labor setting up the booths. I don't know any union guys, so I was curious for more information on what they do for you (aside from collect dues)? I am honestly really curious....

Sorry to hijack, but maybe it will serve as a bump.

[widebody911]

I heard a teaser/blurb on the radio this AM about one WalMart location where the employees successfully unionized, and WalMart shut down
the store!

[mikester]

Wow! Walmart sucks but I could care less about Unions.

In the govt position I'm in I'm supposed to be a teamster and they collect dues (agency fee) from me but I haven't officially joined.

I had never worked in a civil service job before so I was naive to the possiblity of it being union. After I got my first pay check I had $35 deducted called "Agency fee" so I went to HR and asked about it.

"Oh, that's your union dues."

"What union?"

"Nobody told you? You're a teamster now."

f&*k.

Whenever I think about it I get pissed but it did help me once. When my wife was giving birth to our son I wanted to take "paid family leave" which our HR people didn't even know about. In CA SDI pays for men to take 6 weeks of Paid family leave covered under SDI rules (guarantees your job) and FMLA. The Union folks gave me all the information I needed to educate my HR people. I still ended up taking vacation and sick time instead like an idiot. Faced with that choice again I will take the sdi time, especially if I'm still in the government job.

On the other hand, the Union negotiates my salary and since I'm at the top of my pay scale and there are no jobs above mine save for my Director and the CIO - I'm stuck. I haven't had a raise in almost 2 years save for 2% cost of living. What does this mean? I have no motivation to work very hard because I simply won't be rewarded for it any more than if I didn't. It is frustrating because I have always been a very productive employee in the private sector and I'm used to be rewarded for it.

I'm considering other opportunities but with a new family started having the sick time that a govt job gives me and the ability NOT to have to work too hard and still get paid a decent wage - well those are hard to give up. Plus there is the CALPers retirement which is likely nothing to me since I likely won't stay 20 years. Also the benefits are paid for my family - not a bad deal either.

[RickM]

I'm thinking Superman will have some insight. Perhaps you can PM him.

[Jims5543]

Unions are a double edged sword. They were set up with the best intentions of protecting / aiding the worker. Just like everything else it is over run with corruption.

My Dad was a Teamster in NYC for 20 years. They came to his aid quite a few times, but, he knew for a fact the Local he belonged to was Mafia controled. This was in the 70's - 80's so I am not sure if this is still the case.

Good arguments can be made for pro and con.

[Superman]

I might. Just got back from a labor relations workshop.

Mikester, I understand your frustration. You seem sensitive to workers' position on at least some matters (you support attractive pay and benefit packages, I think), so I'll offer my assumption that besides the specific help you got on a one-to-one basis from the Teamster folks, they also sit at the bargaining table at which some of your pay and benefit issues are decided. They may have done much more for you and your colleagues over the years than just provide FMLA benefit info to you personally.

Wal-Mart is a scourge and should be taught a painful lesson. One of the most insane (because it is true) things I heard at yesterday's labor relations workshop concerns an agreement that can be created between an employer and a labor union in which the employer agrees that it will not interfere in workers' decision to certify the union as its bargaining agent, and will recognize that union if it secures votes from the majority of rank-and-file workers. That's crap and the reason it's crap is because the National Labor Relations Act already provides this (non-interference) protection from employers during organizing efforts. It's just that the NLRB is asleep at the wheel regarding enforcement. Wal-Mart should be fined a bazillion dollars and told unequivocally that it must deal in good faith for a change or seek markets outside my country.

Not sure what your specific curiosity is Mike, but I'll PM you in case I can steer you in the direction of some helpful resources.

[Superman]

Oh BTW, and FWIW, collective bargaining equals fairness. If the employer gets to bargain with each individual separately, then no worker has nearly the clout in those negotiations that the employer has. Divide and conquer.

On the other hand, if workers bargain collectively, then their clout rises to somewhere near the company's strong bargaining position. That's the essense of organized labor.

[PeteT]

Mike,
I don't have any experience with UAW or the Teamsters, but I do have first hand knowledge of the CWA (Communications Workers of America). I supervisor 14 construction splicers and have lots of stories of the BS that I have to go through everyday.
Pete

[legion]

I'll try to accurately relay a union story...

My best friend works in a machine shop. The shop employs about two dozen union and non-union people total. He is the production supervisor (or something like that) and is non-union. His father-in-law owns and runs the shop. From what I understand, the father-in-law began as a silent investor, and the guy originally running the shop really mucked things up. Because of this guy's incompetence, the workers in the shop unionized. Because of this guy's continued incompetence, all of the best worker's left the company...leaving only incompetent people.

Eventually, the father-in-law bought out the whole company and the idiot-manager left. In his efforts to turn the company around, he has been continually hampered by the union. He cannot fire any of the incompetent union member,s including one who continually shows up for work drunk. He has tried, been sued, and forced to reinstate the drunk. He brought on new workers, but can't pay them more than the incompetent workers, because the incompetent workers have seniority over the newer, more productive workers. Further, even when production is low, he can't lay anyone off because he'd have to lay off the new productive workers before the senior incompetent ones.

In a company of just two dozen people, what one worker does makes a huge difference in the company's financial picture. He has to lug around a half-dozen imbeciles. The father-in-law is a small employer, and is subject to the whims of the HUGE union. He has no bargaining power, because the union can easily find its members other jobs.

All labor laws favor the unions. Once a shop has become union (at least in Illinois), it can never be de-unionized. All of the non-union workers are keenly aware that if they say anything negative about the union and any union member hears it, they will sue the company out of existence. (They will claim that the company is trying to intimidate the union and its members.)

I don't think all unions are bad, but they seem to do more for themselves anymore than they do for their members. They also seem to have created a sense of entitlement and a disincentive to be productive. (Don't get me started on Caterpillar and the UAW...)

[RallyJon]

Superman = union theory
Legion = union reality

[lendaddy]

Collective bargaining would work if they didn't slant the laws. If a group of employees wants to strike, so be it. The test of whether they are really worth what they want will be if the owner prefers to simply replace them all. That is balance, and it's not something that happens anymore as the laws are scewed.

P.S. there is nothing wrong with WalMart in my opinion. They offer jobs at X wage. Don' want it? Don't take it. Pretty simple really. They don't "owe" you anything.

[mikester]

Originally posted by Superman
Oh BTW, and FWIW, collective bargaining equals fairness. If the employer gets to bargain with each individual separately, then no worker has nearly the clout in those negotiations that the employer has. Divide and conquer.

On the other hand, if workers bargain collectively, then their clout rises to somewhere near the company's strong bargaining position. That's the essense of organized labor.

I disagree whole heartedly. In my meager experience working in the public and the private sector union employees typically have no reason to be productive. Where as non unionized employees must proove themselves daily with their productivity. While I myself am reaping the benefits of the Union in my work situation I would much prefer an employer who valued me for my productivity rather than my hours worked. Where I work now - that's the bottom line - did I work 8 hours that day. At my previous jobs I was salaried and while at times I worked overtime that I wasn't "paid" for there were many many other times where I can say I only worked 30-35 hours in a week and I didn't have to worry about showing up at 9 or 10 am instead of 7 or 8. My productivity was the key - was I getting the job done and was I contributing? The answer for me has always been "yes" simply because of one thing. The company had one single power over all of our dealings: I could be fired at any time for any reason more or less. My main job was to make sure that I gave them a reason to keep me - that should be every employees job. I also had power over the employer being that I was a productive employee who contributed to the business greatly - If I didn't get my way I could always leave. In fact, that is what it came down to - in my perception another employee was promoted over me who was likely near equally as "productive" individually but could not work with or as a team. I on the other hand had mentored all of our other engineers and this was a known fact. I went to my boss regarding the situation and instructed him that he needed to rectify it. I gave them 6 months to do so; they finally came back to me and said that "corporate said no." So - I found another job (I started looking the day I asked for my promotion) and gave my notice. When asked if there was anything they could do to get me to stay I told them they could retroactively promote me back to the date of the other employees promotion - shy of that I was out. The opted not to and so I left for greener pastures. I had worked in that company for a looong time and I really enjoyed that job but the reality is as an employee *I* individually have power - I can always leave even if it means I have to work at Taco freakin bell.

Unions even in theory leave a bad taste in my mouth.

[mikester]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Collective bargaining would work if they didn't slant the laws. If a group of employees wants to strike, so be it. The test of whether they are really worth what they want will be if the owner prefers to simply replace them all. That is balance, and it's not something that happens anymore as the laws are scewed.

P.S. there is nothing wrong with WalMart in my opinion. They offer jobs at X wage. Don' want it? Don't take it. Pretty simple really. They don't "owe" you anything.

The reason I don't care for walmart isn't because of their labor practices because I agree with you for the most part.

I wouldn't work there.

I don't like them because I prefer businesses that are more locally conscience. Walmart isn't; I shop at a local grocer, I buy parts from a local porsche fella (shout out to wayne); blah blah blah.

Plus, the quality of Walmart goods has gone down in my experience (I haven't shopped there in 5 or 6 years though) mainly since they stopped selling only american made goods.

Seriously - if a community says "Don't come here!" why would they argue with that?

[lendaddy]

I agree Mike, I don't shop there either. We have one 4 miles from here and it hasn't hurt anything. In fact there are retail shops going up like weeds. Oh well.

Sup, you seem to subscribe to the idea that if employees CAN get something from their company they should. Sort of a lawyers approach to he system, not what is proper or fair but rather "what can we get away with".

FWIW, if our guys ever went union we would shut the doors, no question.

[mikester]

Originally posted by legion
I'll try to accurately relay a union story...

My best friend works in a machine shop. The shop employs about two dozen union and non-union people total.

Shut the doors, find a new location in town and start a new shop.

[notfarnow]

I used to be in a union! Then I got promoted... then there was a strike... then... err....

[flyenby]

How many people that are in unions jobs, hire or go to union shops when they need something?? They usually go as cheap as they can, so they like all the benefits of being union, but grind everybody else............

15 years experience working in LA/LB harbors

[legion]

Originally posted by mikester
Shut the doors, find a new location in town and start a new shop.

It may just come down to that...but part of the problem is that they are in the Chicago area. They'd probably have to move to another state to avoid retribution from the union.