edited for content by poster.

is that all you got? Typical sniveling liberal, can't stick to the issue, has to go out on some kind of, what appears to be a personal attack, to deflect. I feel sorry for your children.

Are you sticking to the issue? Is this not a personal attack? Take a look in the mirror young man!

I asked him a question with regards to baseless accusations he made and he retorted with that, so I called him on it. I still want an answer to the question, and I maintain that those are the tactics of a sniveling, crybaby, liberal.

BT, i retracted that after rereading it. that was a low blow and i will never make fun of your car again... i am sorry.

i don't have any kids yet, so save your sorry thoughts for something more constructive. when i do i will teach them tolerence, something you and SS seem to be lacking in. its not that i am for open borders or illegals being allowed to pour over our borders. thing is that for every story that SS posts there are 100 mexicans doing work (legal or not) and trying to do nothing more than make a living and contribute to a better life.

have you ever been to a construction site? oh yeah, who builds anything where you live? but if you go to where the economy is well enough off that construction is occurring you will see the mexican labor contributing. its easy for guys like SS to dig up stories of the few bad apples and paint them all with one big brush stroke, but there are productive illegals doing work not many other here (white bread republicans) will dirty their hands with.

there is not easy answer to this problem. i think there has to be better methods of documenting these people, because they are not going away. they serve in a capacity that helps keep our economy running and will continue to. i just resent the fact that SS can come in and post articles about the extreme cases and expect us to think that every illegal in the country fits that bill. if our federal goverment (your republican controlled federal goverment) is not going to make an effort to figure out which of these people are the ones that SS links, or the ones that the original poster in this thread discribe it will continue like this. they will continue to come, we need to document them, get from them what they owe if they are going to make a living here, and weed out the ones that SS links. him painting with his wide brush is like me calling him a racist, which i have not, lately because of his views.

they will continue to come, if SS had some constructive ideas about what should be done i would listen. his constant spew of hate for a few bad apples (and they are very bad people) with out any real solution except "its the law" in his views gets old.

What should we do?

DEPORT THEM DONT REWARD THEM

When I was growing up the constrution was do by AMERICAN CITZENS not Criminal Aliens.

The made good money pounding nails or pouring concrete.

If it wasnt for 25% of the population of mexico invading our country those jobs would still be paying good wages.





Minutemen Are People, Too
Arizona rednecks win a round against the ACLU.

BY LEO W. BANKS
Thursday, May 19, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT

TUCSON, Ariz.--Anybody who appreciates a good yuck was sad to see the Minutemen pack up their pickups and go home. After all, it wasn't every day that we got to enjoy the spectacle of sunscreen-lathered ACLU observers chasing volunteer border-watchers through the desert. But in the media bonfire accompanying Arizona's Redneck Revolt, we saw the cultural divide separating media elites from ordinary people--those with BlackBerries and $150 hairdos versus folks with tobacco bulges in their cheeks.

In the view of most of the reporters who parachuted into Arizona for this story and, disturbingly, local ones as well, you'd get the distinct impression that the Minutemen are the problem along the border. That's right. America needn't worry about the thousands who bust into the country every night. No, the real danger are those yahoos who think calling the cops when they see somebody breaking the law is a good idea.

Never mind that it worked, more or less. In April, the number of illegals coming across along the Naco corridor, where the Minutemen were stationed, fell, even if the balloon effect pushed them to other places along Arizona's 350-mile-long border with Mexico. But that's not the story most editors and producers wanted. They wanted to stand up the angle that went something like--no, exactly like--this: Gun-toting vigilantes run amok in the desert, hunting harmless illegals who are only looking for work.

So, you show up in gritty Tombstone, grab somebody wearing a straw hat and a sidearm and work him for the quotes you want. Then you shoot film of the guy wearing his gun, because that's what the producer said in the story meeting, and if you're lucky you get a big grin on the subject's face showing gaps where teeth should be.

I've been a reporter in Arizona for 30 years. As the border story has heated up, I get calls from out-of-town reporters wanting me to hook them up with angry border residents. If I mentioned in a story that a particular rancher carries a gun, that's the rancher the reporters want to see. They're less interested in understanding his problems than getting film of him and his six-shooter.

These border residents are routinely snickered at and called racist vigilantes. But most are decent folks caught up in the daily invasion of illegals who tramp across their land. Ranchers in hard-hit areas spend the first hours of every day repairing damage done the night before. They find fences knocked down and water spigots left on, draining thousands of precious gallons. And then there's the trash: pill bottles, syringes, used needles, and pile after pile of human feces.





Sometimes illegals hammer on residents' windows in the middle of the night, demanding to use the phone. Some even walk right into the ranch house and refuse to leave until the rancher pulls a gun and forces the issue. One rancher told me about illegals who rustled one of her newborn calves. The intruders beat the 12-hour-old animal to death with a fence post, then barbecued it on the spot.
How bad is it? In the Tucson Sector alone in January 2005, the Border Patrol arrested 35,704 people, seized 34,864 pounds of marijuana, and impounded 557 smuggling vehicles. In one month. High-speed chases and accidents on our back-roads are now common. Residents know to stay off certain roads at night because the smugglers--of people and drugs--own them, and if you're not careful they'll come around a bend at 100 mph and run you into a ditch or worse.

In some hilltop spots near Douglas, you can unfold a lawn chair, crack open a Schlitz and watch the invasion happen. As dusk falls, they come, hundreds of headlights from Mexican cabs streaming north, each filled to the windows with soon-to-be illegals. Are they good folks? Are they carrying biological agents? We have no idea. They could be the worst terrorists and thugs. If that sounds alarmist, consider that some ranchers have found Muslim prayer rugs and Arabic dictionaries on their property. And the feds confirm that the ultraviolent Mara Salvatrucha street gang is using Arizona as a gateway into this country.

But you haven't heard much about these problems nationally, because the media soft-pedal them. Why? It's politically incorrect. We've built a new third rail in American life. Leave the harmless illegals alone and go after their victims instead.

I've interviewed a fellow named Bud Strom, a retired Marine and a pretty fair cowboy poet who has a ranch south of Sierra Vista. He tells about a reporter for the New York Times coming out to his place and doing a story on what it's like to live on the border. "The story made it sound like I was out there helping them, giving them water and such," says Bud laughing. In fact, when he sees a group, he wheels his horse and gets out of there fast, then calls the Border Patrol.





Bud knows what he's dealing with. He has had a truck stolen, found bales of drugs on his land, and routinely has illegals approach him demanding beer. It used to be that one or two would ask a local resident for water and a sandwich, and, once fed, be on their way with a polite "Gracias, Señorita." The new breed now comes in groups of 50. They demand to be driven to their pickup spot, and if you refuse they flip you off. Sometimes they poison barking ranch dogs or cut their throats to quiet them. How long do you suppose such outrages would go on in Fairfield, Conn.? Or Greenwich? It'd be a day and a half before some kumbaya-liberal flipped sides and founded the Merritt Parkway Minutemen. Or the BlackBerry Brigade.
The best part of this story is that while the elite media's agenda on the Minutemen played well on the coasts, Arizonans weren't buying it. A poll found that 57% of the state's residents supported the border-watch project, which sent the editorial page of Tucson's Arizona Daily Star into a stammering fit, calling the number alarming. Of course, this is a paper so politically correct it can't even bring itself to call illegals illegals. Its writers refer to them as migrants or, my favorite, border crossers. But as the Minutemen plan to expand operations to five more states--and a new citizen group, the Yuma Patriots, begins patrolling--that 57% heartens me. It looks to me like the rednecks won.

Mr. Banks is a writer in Tucson.

steve, you take a thread where someone has a "change of heart", and post a bunch of one sided news article depicting a mexican citizen doing some hurting on an american? nice tactic.

nowhere does toby say that mexican criminals should be allowed to run rampant through the streets, committing hideous crimes. come on, toss out a smart arguement. because for every Goddamn article you cut and paste, i promise that i can match you with one that an american citizen committed. *****, i will even find the same crime. mexican cop killer? i can find some american doing the same. for bonus points i will even make the american, caucasion.

i grew up on a border town. i was even fluent in spanish for a bit. i would watch the wealthy-er folks driving around with the pickup trucks, going into the hispanic neighborhoods rounding up daylabor. the mexican would pile into the back of the pickup. the guy doing the hiring would sometimes need to physically pull some labor out of the truck, because too many guys jumped in. they were that anxious to work. i promise you he got alot of work done with the relatively small amount of money he paid. there wasnt alot of respect there. i once was digging out a tree root and my neighbor said, "why are you doing that? just hire a bunch of mexicans". even to this day, the going rate for daylabor is $80 to 100 per day. i watch my neighbor do this last month, in order to trench his yard for sprinklers. none of the day labor guys mugged, killed, raped, or robbed anyone that i could tell.

what about the poor ladies working in "maquiladoras" in juarez mexico. they are being murdered by the hundreds. the factories dont do crap about it, (like bus labor) because there is another young woman to take the work position. well maybe this isnt the best point, because these ladies dont matter, they are on the correct side of the border as far as you are concerned. hmm, are these american factories?

No he spews what are racist commets " White Bread"
That is the same as calling a black person a Ni66er.
So who is the racist here.

We are being invaded by law breaker thatis the simple fact.
No paper to be in the USA legally then your a criminal.
It is that simple facts are facts.

My buddys 11 yo son was killed while riding his bike by a Criminal alien who fled back to Mexico.
I have a dog in this hunt.
Leperosy, TB and many other diseases are brought by these invaders and that is also a fact.
We need to seal our borders to keep the invaders out .
I dont care where you are from.
If you are here without permisson you need to deported NOW back to Ireland China Mexiico Canada.
I dont care just send them back.

if you're white, you are an "invader" in north america

of course a couple hundred years seems to have changed perspective.

wonder what the perspective will be in another couple hundred years?

i honestly didnt know that "white bread" was derogatory. i havent said it, but i am glad you mentioned it, so i never do. unless a sandwich is involved.

is it as bad as the Nword? really? i always felt the Nword was the topdog in racist titles, even the sound spews hate. too bad the KKK didnt start off with "pumpernickel bread" or ".brown bread", "burnt bread"? even steven.

steve, i honestly dont know how to slam the doors on the borders, and what it will do to our country in terms of inexpensive bargain labor. who would do the work on california's farms? i love artichokes, but i cant pay $15 dollars for one.

SEE what happen if ya just let'em walk in? :cool:

The Native North American tribes (who were here first, killing each other) should have done a better job of protecting their tribes. That is what you'r e saying, right?

no, what I'm saying is that people like to stop history where it is convenient for them.

Alright then.

But is he "stopping history" or just wanting to protect his digs? (as many of the native americans did)

not stop history, prevent the repeat.

no diseases allowed from across the borders, could relate to ponce de leons nice little dose of smallpox. maybe the bird flu is the new smallpox.

Thing is, we have a culture here that is much different than that of Mexico.

The illegal Mexicans, who are here (and coming here) by, and large, do NOT share in our same culture, customs and goals.

This country will have the most peace thru the idea of a melting-pot . . . not a collage. Look at Canadas prob's with the "French Canadians".

So now, let's just hope those damn psedo-frogs don't start sneaking across our boarder. :cool:

Wait, is "psedo-frogs" worse than "white-bread," but not as bad as nigerian? . .. or is . .. :rolleyes:

no friggen way is "pseudo frog" as bad. that is just crazy talk!

but...."psuedo bread" now that is bad, and you can get beat up throwing that out in a group of....bakers?

V - this is where the problem lies. We live in a welfare state. The social net is set very, very high and it is expensive. If you are poor or broke you are getting free health care, free housing and free education. And you you really think all of these folks are going to go home at age 62 with no social security and medicaid?

Buy the time you are done adding up the social costs - those artichokes are $15! We should pay the real cost of things up-front.

I for one cut my own grass, clean my own house, cook my own food and wash my own car. My view is that my tax dollar is paying for others laziness and sense of entitlment that semi-citizens can be ill treated and underpaid because certain kinds of work is beneath them and their butterball kid on the couch watching TV. If you cannot pay market rates for these services, then tough!

We are a nation of immigrants, that is not going away. But it should be our choice, how many, with what skills and from where. And we who work and uphold the law should not be asked to turn a blind eye to this criminality in front of us every day. Or be considered racist.

BTW; What "race" is Mexican?

eh, what do I know? . ...I'm just one of them damn culturists. ;)

Perhaps those partisan blinders of yours caused you to miss it but your boy bush's plan for SS would allow that mexican to invest that SS money in a 'private' account somewhere.

I wonder if the immigrant will be forced to pay taxes on that money if he cashes it out like a US citizen would?

With a president like bush in office a crazy californa democrat could never compete when it comes to giving the farm away to foreign labor.

Sorry to brust your bubble.
http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/hive/Kenn-Man/Kennewic.htm

pbs911,

Great, but can she cook? ;)


Seriously, Happy to hear that someone is having a positive year. Good for you and your new POV.

you know, i rarely gave a shat about much until pelican OT entered my life. i just was sheltered here in california, did not realize there was such a big backwards ace world out there. i pretty much thought people were reasonable, wanted the same things out of life that i did and plugged along to get them. i never imagined there were beliefs and opinions that were so far off what i considered "mainstream" that i would feel the anger and distain for some's views that i do.

its a strange time, and frankly i liked it better when i was uninformed, unaware, and could give a shat. there are now places i never want to go, and i hope people from there don't want to ever come here. these places i speak of don't require a passport to get to either.

Amen....

AFJuvat
Second Generation American

Unless I missed something...some of you guys are upset that people are against ILLEGAL immigration and/or want to do something about it?

This is wrong?

K911SC, you in particular. Not to pick on you and I may have missed something, but what is it that upset you so much? I think you're reading alot into this that isn't there. Do you assume that someone that is against ILLEGAL immigration is a racist? Something else? I am honestly confused.

http://wakeupamericafoundation.com/main.html

Top Ten Reasons to
ENFORCE OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS - NOW!

10. It's time to raise the American standard of living.
The real minimum wage has been declining for over a decade. Some advocate raising the minimum wage--but this, of course, would raise the price of unskilled labor above its free-market value. Mass unemployment would result.

Why has the market value of unskilled labor declined? For the same reason that all prices move: supply and demand. It's hard to change the demand side of the equation: you can't make anyone "need" an unskilled worker who doesn't need one already. For years, however, we have been artificially modifying the supply side by quietly tolerating a massive influx of unskilled workers across our borders. We can reverse the trend by enforcing immigration laws. We won't need to raise the minimum wage. It will raise itself. Millions of Americans will be lifted out of poverty, and millions more from the lower middle class to prosperity.


9. We can immediately create millions of new jobs.
Conservative estimates place the number of illegal aliens in the U.S. at 10,000,000. That's ten million. Taking into account minor children and the aged, that's still millions of people who are flooding our labor force. Remove them, and opportunities will abound for Americans.

There's an old canard that says that illegals "take the jobs Americans don't want." This is a fallacy! There's no job an American can't or won't do for a living wage. It is a cruel joke on the American worker to allow illegals to depress wages for many jobs below poverty level, and then to mock Americans for being reluctant to participate in the poverty.


8. Breaking the law is crime. Lawbreakers are criminals.
Out of deference to the PC crowd, many like to use the term "undocumented workers"--as if illegals were merely missing a piece of bureaucratic paperwork. By the same logic, we can call a car thief an "undocumented driver."

Our immigration laws exist for good reasons: to protect our safety, our national sovereignty, our standard of living, our health, and our culture. Those who break them may "want a better life for themselves," but then again, so do all who enrich themselves by disregarding the law.

Besides, many people who wish to immigrate honestly are waiting patiently. Granting privileges like driver's licenses and social security cards to illegals is a slap in the face to law-abiding citizens and immigrants alike. It's like opening an express window to give titles and owner's cards to car thieves, while making legitimate owners stand in line!


7. Open borders threaten our safety.
Since the attacks of September 11, 2001, two things have become clear. First, we have enemies, and they are vicious and without conscience. Second, our enemies obviously believe that an attack from within is more feasible than an attack from without.

Even before the horrid events of September 11, our immigration laws had the primary purpose of protecting us. The use of visas and passports allows our government to monitor, and to control, who enters our country, and why.

Certainly, few illegal aliens are terrorists. But it only takes one! More importantly, the creeping ideology of open borders--the (usually unspoken) belief that treating foreigners who enter our country differently than we treat our own citizens is somehow "discriminatory" or "racist"--is creating a terrible dilemma: Either we cease to monitor the aliens (and open ourselves up for even worse attacks), or we create the "equality" of the police state by casting aside constitutional protections for citizens and monitoring everyone.

The more resolutely we protect our borders against threats from without, the safer, and freer, we can live within them.


6. We're a nation of 300 million; the Third World population is in the billions. Do the math.
Our country seems large, but its population is tiny compared to that of the Third World. China and India alone have seven times our population.

For whatever reasons, our society has succeeded in creating immense wealth where many others have created only poverty. An American welfare recipient would still be "rich" by the standards of most of the world.

One can't blame the citizens of countries who produce much less wealth per capita than we for wanting to reap the benefits our forefathers have sown for us. But if we open the borders, our island of productivity and prosperity will soon disappear beneath a flood of Third World squalor.

5. American culture is worth preserving.
Culture is more than operas and Shakespearian plays--it's the sum total of the customs, beliefs, artistic creations, attitudes, goals, and norms that make a society what it is. It is passed down, as a treasure, from grandparent to parent to child. In other words, culture is what gives us our identity.

Some advocate "multiculturalism"--creating a society in which multiple cultures exist side by side, and believe that "diversity"--having as many cultures as possible, with none dominant--is desirable.

The majority of the media elite believes that we need more multiculturalism and diversity; the majority of the population doesn't. Regardless of how anyone stands on this issue, the fact is that our society is already multicultural and diverse. Anyone who wishes to enjoy, and celebrate, the many cultures now coexisting in America need only visit any American city.

By contrast, genuine American culture--the Founding Fathers, the story of the pioneers and the winning of the west, the Pledge of Allegiance, Columbus Day, the Bill of Rights--is under constant assault. Some of our country's detractors vilify all that is traditionally American, while others would reduce our traditions to one more example of quaint folklore beside those of other nations. Russian culture can be found in Russia, Mexican culture in Mexico, multiculturalism in any major city... but where can one find American culture? Only in a place where Americans treasure it, and lovingly transmit it from generation to generation. Immigration laws should ensure that those who seek to live permanently on American territory be willing to adopt and preserve its culture. And they are useless unless they are enforced.


4. It's not your father's immigration.
Previous generations romanticized immigration. The images are still with us: Starry-eyed Irish, Italian, Jewish, and Polish arrivees toting their bags and trunks onto shore at Ellis Island... The tablet at the base of the Statue of Liberty exhorting other nations to "Give me your tired, your poor..." The native-born American learning to love pizza and bagels.

That was then. This is now.

Yes, there are still many people in foreign lands who harbor the "American dream," and who seek to come here to realize it.

Millions of illegal aliens, however, have attitudes and motives very different from those of the immigrants in the fading black-and-white photos of yesteryear. It's not fashionable to speak the truth about this group. But the truth must be spoken.

What makes this new breed of "immigrants" different? To begin with, they're not "immigrating" at all--they're sneaking in. They don't have an "American dream" of building this country; rather, though still loyal to their home nations, they want to exploit ours economically. Many even dream of taking over regions of our country, and displacing us. There's already a word for this goal: reconquista. If the members of this group don't intend to return home, yet have no loyalty to America, what should we call them? Certainly not "immigrants."

Colonists is perhaps a better term. Today's colonists, like those of the past, want to build enclaves on American soil from which they can expand their own wealth and power, and that of their homeland, while drawing on the resources that were created by the native population. How can we welcome legitimate immigrants while keeping out colonists? By knowing who is coming here, and why, and only admitting those whose presence is in our country's best interests. In other words, by enforcing immigration laws.


3. It's an issue we can all come together on.
Conservatives, traditionally, aim to preserve the valuable legacy of the past, and to protect freedom by limiting the power of government. Liberals seek to provide all citizens, even the most disadvantaged, with the opportunity to realize their full potential. Both have worthy goals, but often squabble over how to realize them.

Removing illegal aliens can give us the best of both worlds. We can preserve our traditional culture. And without resorting to costly and intrusive government programs, we can give our poor a genuine "hand up": as the glut of cheap labor dries up, those at the bottom rung of the economic ladder will suddenly find themselves able to climb higher without ruinous competition.

People of good will on the left and the right can only smile approvingly as the free market (hallowed by conservatives) provides our unskilled and uneducated with a decent wage, and with a job market that welcomes instead of marginalizes them (the well-meaning goal of liberal government programs).

We can "live better than we did four years ago" and have a rebirth of national pride, as President Reagan wanted for us. And we can have a "New Deal" for our poor, a society where no American is left out, which were the ideals of President Roosevelt.

At last, we can come together. Maybe that's what patriotism is all about.


2. We either face tough issues now, or tougher ones later.
Immigration issues are complex. We need a national debate--which, judging by the 2004 primary and general Presidential campaigns, isn't happening.

Most Americans, when confronted with the facts, will probably continue to want what they want now: strict enforcement of our immigration laws.

It won't be easy. We'll have to find workable ways to deport illegal aliens without creating unnecessary hardships for those who have broken our immigration laws, and without creating severe dislocations for the unscrupulous employers who have benefited from their presence. And, of course, we'll have to counter, with quiet reason, the voices of those who scream "discrimination" or "racism."

Some cringe at the challenges that await us.

These challenges, however, pale in comparison to those that future generations will face if we fail to act. Imagine an overcrowded, impoverished America with shrinking wages and expanding burdens on the social service system. Imagine an America where millions of Americans have been driven out of their neighborhoods by throngs of foreign colonists who neither speak our language nor understand the culture that created American prosperity--but who deeply resent the poverty that inevitably results from their own unwillingness, or inabilty, to live as true Americans.

Will Americans be forced to tax away their own shriveling wealth, and to transfer it to the aliens within our borders, if they wish to appease the colonists' anger? Will the shrinking American middle class merge with the alien underclass to form a new "peasant culture" while a tiny American elite trembles behind the walls of heavily policed gated communities? Or will full-scale cultural and racial war break out? None of these possibilities is appealing. Nonetheless, a society is a reflection of the population that comprises it. If we, as an advanced society with a low birthrate, continue to import a Third World population with a high birthrate, we will become a Third World society, and will face the problems which other Third World societies face as well.

Isn't it better to face the issue of illegal immigration now--and to do something about it?

... and the number one reason is:


1. We owe it to our kids and grandkids.
Our children and grandchildren will marvel at the digitized archives of the TV shows of the 1950s and 1960s. They'll see a prosperous, free, united America-- the envy of the world, a place anyone would be happy and proud to call home. This, they'll realize, was the legacy our grandparents and parents left us, the American citizens of the early 21st century.

How will the America we leave to our children stack up against the America our parents left to us? What will future generations think of us? Will we be known as the preservers and expanders of the beautiful legacy, or as its destroyers? By our actions or inactions, we're deciding which it will be. Right now.

....hmmm, last time I checked, there were no illegal aliens competing for my Corporate Position...just a bunch of damn Gen Y'ers with MBAs...I guess that if I were pickin strawberries or workin at McD's I would have a different POV...

hey steve,decent wages for all, if only all the non-americans went away! really, this from a country that rejected health reforms for its poorest. it amazes me, how many americans, are actually outside the system,ie, dont even have a social security card. as far as people hating americans, can you blame them, when american companys build plants like the one in bhopal, india, and avoid safety issues that would never see the light of day in america, then when the plant exploded, done everything possible to not pay any kind of compensation, to the thousands of familys who lost fathers, brothers etc. just one of many! also, the terrorists you speak of, are already in your country, and some of them are apparently american too, or did i miss something in oklahoma.
i live in a "border" city. detroit is 1 mile north. i dont like the fact that despite the laws of this country {canada}, all too many americans come over here, mainly the 19 year olds, as they can drink legally, and they bring their guns with them. one only has to watch the local news to see that almost everynight, there is some kind of shooting, in detroit. wow, thats a great mix, n"est-pas? all these kids getting drunk, and as soon as there is some kind of altercation, wild bill comes out. i'm not bashing america/americans, its just sad that some of you dont realise that for a majority, america is not nirvana.
last point. all the big three auto makers, are in a scramble to build plants in china. the market there is massive,compared to the home market. already, jobs are slipping away, to mexico, and china, all because of the huge profit margins to be realised by their cheap labour. you must be pretty naive, if you think the same decision makers will keep the jobs here in north america, just to keep the average american in a job, with your "decent" wage.
it would be really interesting, to hear a view from a native american, on this issue, but from what i already know, they get treated worse than anyone else, despite the fact that they were here first.
regards, bob. ex-royal navy, gulf war #1

Detroit is part of the US? Yikes!

i know, its way too scary!!!!