I used to hate illegals, but someone changed my mind.
 

I...

That is very cool that you can change your thinking. I really don't know if I am a republican or a democrat because I go issue by issue when I vote.

I had a similiar experience with illegal immigrants several years ago I worked in a restaurant as a cashier. A family of illegal immigrants, by family I mean father, mother, aunts, uncles, cousins, brothers, sisters etc. worked for the same owner and everyone of them made minimum wage. One night the father was deported back to Mexico and I offered a little cash to help the family wherever I could but what's funny is he was back working the very next day.

It is amazing how screwed up the immigration system is. My father came here on a student visa in 1972 and it took almost 10-15 years to get his citzenship. And now the whole system seems to be failing but I could be wrong. I wish these people all my best but we have to improve the system so that everyone has a fair chance at becoming a US Citizen.

Re: I used to hate illegals, but someone changed my mind.
 

No, not the way I understand it. Unions (Dems) are the biggest anti-illegals group in the country. Rich Republicans are often villified for allowing illegals "for the cheap labor". So without getting into the deeper parts of your post, I think you have it a bit backwards on the political parties.

But in reality it's probably NOT a right/left issue for most. It is probably a "does it directly affect me"/"not in my back yard" issue.

Illegal means illegal, but that doesn't mean I don't want them to earn citizenship either. Just do it right like those from the orient. Maybe it's too hard, but again...illegal is illegal. That being said I can totally understand why they DO come here illegally and I can't blame them.

So, marry her, make her legal???

I love it when people say "illegal is illegal". Does that mean you never speed? It is illegal you know?

The whole immigration system needs to be fixed. How about guest visa for Central Americans so that they can work legally in the US and PAY income taxes? That would at least some of the budgetary problems. It seems as if Bush was headed that way until 9/11...

I agree with Len...Illegal is illegal. I understand why people would try to enter illegally...and would probablyt do the same in similar circumstances. That does not mean we should allow it. If the same people would put similar energy and effort in developing their own countries, they would soon have no reason to come here.

Paul, I'm glad to hear that you met someone nice, but still your post is a little confusing to me. You used to "hate illegals"(?) I am for enforcing, and changing immigration law because they are dysfunctional and a mess, but I've never hated or blamed people for wanting to leave a 3rd world cesspool and move to the U.S.

It is a difficult issue because human beings are involved, and in fact for the most part they are good people. Still, the current system is a disaster on every level. Blame the system, though, not the people. And Republicans are huge supporters of cheap labor that don't report labor law violations, so that means "don't ask/don't tell" where they came from. :rolleyes:

Immigration is a lot like a life boat. Sure you want the best for people and letting them in the boat would be very good for them, especially if they are very deserving of being saved. The problem is that if you allow too many people to clamor into the boat at once in an unregulated way your boat will be capsized or sunk.

Immigrants! My family has had nothing but trouble with immigrants, ever since we came to this country! Funny how an encounter with a real person can ruin a perfectly good stereotype. Glad you met her.
Les

This loophole, for all practical purposes, has been closed.

This is what most are saying. However, if one must register and pay taxes then they are no longer cheap labor. Part of cheap is being unaccountable on different levels.

We also can't afford to have an invisible population in this day and age.

Bingo! They come into the country and use the system and all of its benefits (if they are able) and do not support it.

My family immigrated from Europe in 1860, did it legally as you should. I can understand the feelings that Paul has but its still illegal. The fact that they are hard working and good people is excellent but jumping across the fence and running North is not the way to do it.

DTW, this is not a loophole and is not closed. An American can marry a foreigner and they are allowed in the country. May take a while and some paperwork but it will never be "not allowed."

JoeA

I'm with speed... You used to "hate" them? really? And your a doctor???

I would think that the education that gets one to a Phd level would involve some kind of struggle and some kind of insight in ones fellow man...

Everyone of these folks has a story to tell. Where they grew up, how they got here, how they survive. Just because you mow lawns, clean plates and scrub toilets does not make you an unworthy person.

My problem with immigration today is the unfairness. We are a nation of laws and rules, and the reason this place works reasonably well, is that we follow them. For the sake of cheap labor, we are corrupting our own culture.

Who said ANYTHING about not wanting or allowing immigrants?

Perhaps we should just do away with ALL immigration laws? If you're not in favor of that, are you dispariging immigrants as well? Such a silly argument.

How is an illegal alien marrying an American to gain a green card and citizenship not a loophole? Further, marriage to an illegal alien now does NOTHING to help them gain status. If you've got more intimate knowledge of USCIS forms I-130 and I-485 than I do, please send me the number of your immigration attorney and I'll fire mine today.

Nice try Len, but it doesn't pass the "straight face test." Just because Dubya cannot clamp down on illegal immigration without stepping on his own dick does not mean the Republican party is not opposed to it. It is similarly untrue to assert that unions are the biggest anti-illegals group in the country. Yes, they oppose illegal bahavior of many kinds like veryone else, but unions are fighting outsourcing not immigration. They tend to favor protectionist stuff (like opposing NAFTA, for example), but they are certainly not anti-immigration. It is certainly amusing to watch the Republican party's schizophrenic approach to this issue. That party has to hate immigration, but encourage it.

The thread-starting story is amusing and uplifting too. It certainly flies in the face of some folks' theories that we become more conservative as we get older and smarter. I like to think selfish people are simply unaware of how the world works, how societies operate, how families operate, etc. I know that's naive, but the alternative is to believe they do understand how things work, and are hoping to take advantage of others. Raising the Mexican standard of living would reduce the motivation to immigrate, but we'd have to make some sacrifice in order to accomplish this. It would be a kind of charity. And it would be the right thing to do. But then.....

Where would we get the cheap, hard-working labor that our economic system feeds from? Good luck with your conservative political leanings on this one. It's easy to defend from a selfish economic perspective, but hard to justify from a human standpoint.

...

Sup, I have NO idea what you're talking about. What exactly is it that has led you to believe Republicans are anti-immigration? Seriously, do you have a proposal or agenda item or whatever...that I haven't seen yet from my party?
And if you don't think the Unions aren't anti-immigration (both legal and illegal) you are desperatley in need of an education on the matter. The bottom line is they see it as "furriners" stealing their jobs.

FWIW - Mexicans are among the finest and hardest working people that I, personally, have ever met.

Its admirable that you can change your views based on that type of personal exposure and experience. A dehumanised, removed concept such as "illegal immigrant" has been changed for you.

Has this experience changed your opinions on other matters, where befroe you may have applied certain preconceptions?

Stuart

I believe I have a perspective on this that most posters do not have.
I am now an American Citizen. I came here legally. I applied three times over many years to come to the USA before I was granted permission.
I went through the process legally. I filled out all the forms, took all the medicals, paid the fee’s, took all the tests, registered for the Selective Service (Draft for Legal Resident Americans) in case of war. When I had been here long enough I applied for Citizenship
For over twenty years I have always paid my taxes, admittedly not a lot of money the first few years but what I consider a boat load now. Enough to buy several Porsche’s a year.
I pay my property taxes and school taxes and also pay to send my kids to private school because LA unified is a hole in the ground we pour money into.... well I wont go into that.
But most of all I have never, repeat never taken one handout from the people of this wonderful country. I have done jobs I didn’t want too but I did them. I have NEVER been on un-employment, welfare, food stamps, “free” education, and have always paid for my own medical coverage.
Also I have never committed a felony. Yes I have sped, but I sped in many countries I’ve been in and think it is quite absurd to compare speeding with illegal immigration.

I guess what I’m ranting about is there are lots of people that where not born members of the lucky s perm club and wanted to live here, some of us just believed that we shouldn’t start our new lives on a lie.
If you hate you country work to change it. If you can’t maybe you should ask the other country you intend on living in if they would mind if you entered before you break in and ask the legal residences to pay for you.
If you want to get a better life for your kids, and who doesn’t, don’t think that breaking into another country so that their citizens will educate, feed, medicate, house and everything else the USA will do without question is the answer. I work hard to develop my new legal country every day, as I did my old homeland, and continue to do so, but please don’t give me “they had to sleep in trees cold and hungry” line yet they now own property in the USA and Mexico just how did that happen?! Did they ever offer to pay back all the money for the free services they received and pay the back immigration fees?
I did it the right way and am proudly raising my kids to respect the laws of this country.
Flame away. But it can be done respecting other countries laws.
Steve

Isn't it funny that we attempt to keep out people that are dying to come to America and work and contribute yet we keep a ton of deadbeats that don't do squat here in the states on welfare?

Perhaps some sort of trade is in order? Consider it a "modest proposal".

Rob, I like the way you think.

This is not a political issue even though some will try to point to reasons they think it is (just another lame attempt to paint their political enemies in a bad light).

The same people who claim we need to help these poor souls, when discussing other topics, will claim we should not be helping others when our own citizens are in need of aid.

Sorry Supe, but I am not buying the crap you are trying to sell today.

Ha. I wonder if thats how the Native Americans felt when they were stripped or cheated out of their lands via "Peace Treaties"

What about the slave that were brought from Africa....

We are all immigrants in one way or another.

hmm, interesting points. i was born in scotland, and lived there for a long time, b4 moving here to ontario, canada about 9 years ago. i went thru the immigration process, which costs about $1500can, which goes to the gov, and about $2k to an immigration lawyer. i remember the first week at work overhearing a couple of other workers complaining about "people" who come into the country, and just go on welfare etc etc. i told them that as i was just into the country, and had not paid any money into the system, i would not use, or abuse that system, and that if things did not work out there, i would get another job elsewhere, or if work was not available, i would move back to britain. for the first 3 months, i had no medical coverage, so had to take out private coverage. also, the gov was taking off cpp {pension} contributions, that would not count towards my pension. i had to wait until the qualifying time was up, although i still had to make those contributions, until then. strange thing is, i have met a lot of people from n.america, who have moved to britain, and they certainly did not have to pay any money to the gov, to allow them to move there. and they are elegible for state benefits from day one. this i dont mind. its not all a one way street. however, my girlfriend is american, and she has lived here in canada for the last 15 years. some day, we plan to marry, and we have talked about a possible move to the U.S. now i'm wondering if there is going to be some kind of obstacle to this. i have dual citizenship, but think the U.S does not allow this, if you become a citizen? its quite funny when i go back to scotland, and avoid the lines at customs, by using my U.K passport, then coming back to canada, use the canadian one.
interestingly, a large percentage of country's, want to limit the influx of foreigh workers, because it does take jobs away from resident workers, albeit in the main, low paying jobs, however, the same country's have no problem, exporting work abroad, and causing the same effect, to jobs.
just my 0.1 euro.
bob.

The problem lies not with the hard working illegals. You can hardly blame them for trying to improve their lives.

A problem is that the borders are so open and so many have made it this far, that wages have been driven to ridiculously low levels. Fifteen years ago I worked in a wholesale fish market - we (illegal or not) got $7 an hour. Today the going rate is $50 for a 12 hour day for a Mexican kid here in NYC doing the same kind of work.

Minimum wage laws are as much a joke as border controls..

Another sad tale of forced prostitution:

http://www.nysun.com/article/13991

Interesting read.

I understand your feelings Pau
But to many people suffer from like these families.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/state/la-me-stabbing18may18.story
2 Held in Fatal Stabbing of Corona Teen
The three assailants apparently made "derogatory comments" to Dominic, who is African American, before the attackDominic, a star running back for the Centennial Huskies football team, was not affiliated with any gang, Rodriguez and Dominic's father said.
The two teens, who are Latino, do not attend Centennial High.

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2740780

Twice-deported Mexican invader held in heinous murder case.
Juan Carlos Diaz-Arevalo, allegedly shot her once in the head in front of her older sister and 3-year-old son.

Diaz-Arevalo walked up to the blue 1995 Pontiac and confronted Fawson about who owned the car, police said. The altercation escalated when Diaz-Arevalo reached
in through the window, and Fawson and her sister tried to push him out. Fawson opened the door and "mule kicked" Diaz-Arevalo, who then allegedly shot her once in the face

This is just two stories in todays news I could post many, many more from the news today

SS, been a while. hate on!

K911sc
So when is following the law Hate?

Detective Donald "Donnie" Young was killed and another detective was injured while working off-duty security May 8. The suspect, Garcia-Gomez, is at large.
And fleeing back to Mexico.

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/about.html

About ImmigrationsHumanCost

ImmigrationsHumanCost is dedicated to putting a human face on the havoc that open borders has brought. The press is full of stories about the struggling immigrant (often here illegally) who has come "in search of a better life." The media fail to note that this same foreigner will achieve his better life at the cost of some American who makes less money in a flooded labor market or will directly lose his job to an immigrant willing to work for peanuts. Where is the sympathetic article about an unemployed American roofer who has been displaced by a Mexican doing the job for $8 an hour?

Perhaps it should be mentioned that part of the point of legal immigration, besides the issue of the simple fairness of taking a number and standing in line, is the inspection of prospective immigrants to keep out likely criminals, terrorists and those who have infectious diseases. Protecting citizens from such obvious dangers should be a primary responsibility, a fact that was earlier recognized before business realized it could reduce labor costs by opening the borders for an endless supply of cheap foreign labor. Of course, a country that calls itself a "nation of laws" should be awarding its most valuable asset — citizenship — on the basis of an orderly queue, rather than selfish gatecrashing.

IHC has been getting attention for its spotlight on individual criminals who plague our communites as well as for describing the victims of criminal aliens. Friend of immigration enforcement Rep. Tom Tancredo has read from that web page during Special Orders Speeches in the House of Representatives, specifically on July 16. Here is a video from a week earlier, where he begins discussing crime victims at around 26 minutes into the speech (uses Real Video).

Americans who have encountered the kinds of immigration-fueled economic and social harm are invited to contact us with their own personal experiences.


Brenda Walker
bwalker11 at comcast dot net



Snail Mail:
ImmigrationsHumanCost.org
Box 5112
Berkeley CA 94705
Phone: 510-843-7491

It's only a matter of time before some Kalifornia senator (probably a woman) tries to find a way for illegals to take their social security with them. It's not a question of if it will happen, but when.

Here are the people KC911sc is defending.

http://www.deputydavidmarch.com/
On April 29, 2002, Deputy Dave March was murdered on the streets of Los Angeles County. The suspected gunman then fled the Country to Mexico. It is believed by many that the Mexican Government has refused to extradite the suspected killer because he may be imprisoned for life or executed for the crime.

The reason for this website is to bring to light the terrible problem Law Enforcement and United States Citizens face when criminals can flee to Mexico to be considered untouchable. Mexico's lack of cooperation has led to a suspected murderer running free, laughing at the United States, it's people, and its Law Enforcement.

Our hope is that this suspect, Armando Garcia, is brought to justice and that Mexico changes it's policies regarding harboring murderers of Americans.



http://www.deportaliens.com/

Predatory Aliens
Tens of thousands of violent crimes are committed each year against our children by predatory aliens who should never have been allowed to enter or stay in our country. The most disturbing aspect of this problem is the thousands of unregistered sex offenders who have entered the United States illegally and therefore are not being tracked. These dangerous sex offenders are not included in the Megan's Law data bases, and not even the police know their whereabouts or identities.

While this site deals with predatory aliens who commit violent crimes against our children, we must remember that the real criminals are the politicians and government employees who prohibit enforcement of our immigration laws and the proper screening of foreign nationals who enter our country. There can be no penalty too harsh for these politicians and government employees who are willing to sacrifice our children for their own perverse agenda.

In Operation Predator sweeps, from July 9, 2003 to March 3, 2005, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents arrested more than 4,250 foreign national sexual predators in the United States of America. The top 10 states for Operation Predator arrests were California (1,317), Texas (448), New Jersey (369), New York (317), Illinois (209), Florida (189), Arizona (185), Minnesota (147), Michigan (128), and Colorado (125). ICE, Operation Predator

umm....Steve, do you think these sites might be a little biased?


naw....couldn't be....

SS i am not defending anyone. i am just relieved you are back from your tour with the minute men w/o any ill effects. any kills you could share with us? do you get extra MM points for women or childern kills? any extra for head shots? i bet you get honorary mention for maiming, or crippling. if you were to maim or cripple do you help them back accross the border, or just spit on them where they lay?

or are you not a MM member? too "in the trenches" for you?

boy i have missed SS's rhetoric the last few months.

hate on!

any proof of ANY of that happening at ALL by MM, k911sc, or are you just mumbling again? :rolleyes:

K911sc is tyipical of those who support the invasion.

Calling people who stand up for the law racist or whatever.

Their argument cant be done on merit so they call names.