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Shaun @ Tru6 07-13-2005 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fintstone
The law is clear. I have not yet seen anyone even post a liberal source showing that she actually was a covert operative (by definition) or that Rove knew....much less anything to show intent.
the law is very clear! why are republican congressmen lying about it? Why do they feel they need to?

We could do a buffet, Tabs and I went to a great buffet in the old part of town last February. It was excellent. Golden Nugget I think?

I fondly remember the days of expense accounts... favorite is the place with the tower of wine.

let me know.

lendaddy 07-13-2005 06:16 PM

I'm not really concerned about the law on this. If I'm convinced he knew and did it on purpose I want him gone.

But, I don't see a motive or any reason to believe he knew. Cooper called him to talk about health care and Cooper brought up the Niger story. But.... somehow this was Rove's big plan to out a non active agent for the purpose of .......well for the pupose of what?

Shaun @ Tru6 07-13-2005 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
In my alternate right-wing "Rovian" universe we have changed it to one word, efficiency don't you know:)
Rovian. Now that's a cool word, but not so much Karl. I don't really see him as efficient. Who was the British author who shortened everything in the English language down to its phonetics. Was it Orwell? Don't think so, but a peer from his time.

Shaun @ Tru6 07-13-2005 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
I'm not really concerned about the law on this. If I'm convinced he knew and did it on purpose I want him gone.

But, I don't see a motive or any reason to believe he knew. Cooper called him to talk about health care and Cooper brought up the Niger story. But.... somehow this was Rove's big plan to out a non active agent for the purpose of .......well for the pupose of what?

Who cares why? When someone kills someone else, is it more important to show why or show that he did it? Sure motive is a factor, but by itself no one's going to get convicted by just demonstrating motive. It's really secondary.

the fact is Karl broke the law.

fintstone 07-13-2005 06:22 PM

This artcle has a little different take than the mainstream media:

Lawyer: Cooper “Burned” Karl Rove
Rove’s attorney talks to NRO.
Byron York

The lawyer for top White House adviser Karl Rove says that Time reporter Matthew Cooper "burned" Rove after a conversation between the two men concerning former ambassador Joseph Wilson's fact-finding mission to Niger and the role Wilson's wife, CIA employee Valerie Plame, played in arranging that trip. Nevertheless, attorney Robert Luskin says Rove long ago gave his permission for all reporters, including Cooper, to tell prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald about their conversations with Rove.

In an interview with National Review Online, Luskin compared the contents of a July 11, 2003, internal Time e-mail written by Cooper with the wording of a story Cooper co-wrote a few days later. "By any definition, he burned Karl Rove," Luskin said of Cooper. "If you read what Karl said to him and read how Cooper characterizes it in the article, he really spins it in a pretty ugly fashion to make it seem like people in the White House were affirmatively reaching out to reporters to try to get them to them to report negative information about Plame."

First the e-mail. According to a report in Newsweek, Cooper's e-mail to Time Washington bureau chief Michael Duffy said, "Spoke to Rove on double super secret background for about two mins before he went on vacation..." Cooper said that Rove had warned him away from getting "too far out on Wilson," and then passed on Rove's statement that neither Vice President Dick Cheney nor CIA Director George Tenet had picked Wilson for the trip; "it was, KR said, wilson's wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd issues who authorized the trip." Finally — all of this is according to the Newsweek report — Cooper's e-mail said that "not only the genesis of the trip is flawed an[d] suspect but so is the report. he [Rove] implied strongly that there's still plenty to implicate iraqi interest in acquiring uranium fro[m] Niger..."

A few days after sending the e-mail, Cooper co-wrote an article headlined "A War on Wilson?" that appeared on Time's website. The story began, "Has the Bush administration declared war on a former ambassador who conducted a fact-finding mission to probe possible Iraqi interest in African uranium? Perhaps."

The story continued:

Some government officials have noted to Time in interviews (as well as to syndicated columnist Robert Novak) that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, is a CIA official who monitors the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. These officials have suggested that she was involved in her husband's being dispatched to Niger to investigate reports that Saddam Hussein's government had sought to purchase large quantities of uranium ore, sometimes referred to as yellow cake, which is used to build nuclear devices.

Plame's role in Wilson's assignment was later confirmed by a Senate Intelligence Committee investigation.

Luskin told NRO that the circumstances of Rove's conversation with Cooper undercut Time's suggestion of a White House "war on Wilson." According to Luskin, Cooper originally called Rove — not the other way around — and said he was working on a story on welfare reform. After some conversation about that issue, Luskin said, Cooper changed the subject to the weapons of mass destruction issue, and that was when the two had the brief talk that became the subject of so much legal wrangling. According to Luskin, the fact that Rove did not call Cooper; that the original purpose of the call, as Cooper told Rove, was welfare reform; that only after Cooper brought the WMD issue up did Rove discuss Wilson — all are "indications that this was not a calculated effort by the White House to get this story out."

"Look at the Cooper e-mail," Luskin continues. "Karl speaks to him on double super secret background...I don't think that you can read that e-mail and conclude that what Karl was trying to do was to get Cooper to publish the name of Wilson's wife."

Nor, says Luskin, was Rove trying to "out" a covert CIA agent or "smear" her husband. "What Karl was trying to do, in a very short conversation initiated by Cooper on another subject, was to warn Time away from publishing things that were going to be established as false." Luskin points out that on the evening of July 11, 2003, just hours after the Rove-Cooper conversation, then-CIA Director George Tenet released a statement that undermined some of Wilson's public assertions about his report. "Karl knew that that [Tenet] statement was in gestation," says Luskin. "I think a fair reading of the e-mail was that he was trying to warn Cooper off from going out on a limb on [Wilson's] allegations."

Luskin also shed light on the waiver that Rove signed releasing Cooper from any confidentiality agreement about the conversation. Luskin says Rove originally signed a waiver in December 2003 or in January 2004 (Luskin did not remember the exact date). The waiver, Luskin continues, was written by the office of special prosecutor Fitzgerald, and Rove signed it without making any changes — with the understanding that it applied to anyone with whom he had discussed the Wilson/Plame matter. "It was everyone's expectation that the waiver would be as broad as it could be," Luskin says.

Cooper and New York Times reporter Judith Miller have expressed concerns that such waivers (top Cheney aide Lewis Libby also signed one) might have been coerced and thus might not have represented Rove's true feelings. Yet from the end of 2003 or beginning of 2004, until last Wednesday, Luskin says, Rove had no idea that there might be any problem with the waiver.

It was not until that Wednesday, the day Cooper was to appear in court, that that changed. "Cooper's lawyer called us and said, "Can you confirm that the waiver encompasses Cooper?" Luskin recalls. "I was amazed. He's a lawyer. It's not rocket science. [The waiver] says 'any person.' It's that broad. So I said, 'Look, I understand that you want reassurances. If Fitzgerald would like Karl to provide you with some other assurances, we will.'" Luskin says he got in touch with the prosecutor — "Rule number one is cooperate with Fitzgerald, and there is no rule number two," Luskin says — and asked what to do. According to Luskin, Fitzgerald said to go ahead, and Luskin called Cooper's lawyer back. "I said that I can reaffirm that the waiver that Karl signed applied to any conversations that Karl and Cooper had," Luskin says. After that — which represented no change from the situation that had existed for 18 months — Cooper made a dramatic public announcement and agreed to testify.

A few other notes: Luskin declined to say how Rove knew that Plame "apparently" (to use Cooper's word) worked at the CIA. But Luskin told NRO that Rove is not hiding behind the defense that he did not identify Wilson's wife because he did not specifically use her name. Asked if that argument was too legalistic, Luskin said, "I agree with you. I think it's a detail."

Luskin also addressed the question of whether Rove is a "subject" of the investigation. Luskin says Fitzgerald has told Rove he is not a "target" of the investigation, but, according to Luskin, Fitzgerald has also made it clear that virtually anyone whose conduct falls within the scope of the investigation, including Rove, is considered a "subject" of the probe. "'Target' is something we all understand, a very alarming term," Luskin says. On the other hand, Fitzgerald "has indicated to us that he takes a very broad view of what a subject is."

Finally, Luskin conceded that Rove is legally free to publicly discuss his actions, including his grand-jury testimony. Rove has not spoken publicly, Luskin says, because Fitzgerald specifically asked him not to.

Shaun @ Tru6 07-13-2005 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
I'm not really concerned about the law on this. If I'm convinced he knew and did it on purpose I want him gone.


If I speed, but not on purpose, and am caught by the state police, do I still get a ticket?

lendaddy 07-13-2005 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
Who cares why? When someone kills someone else, is it more important to show why or show that he did it? Sure motive is a factor, but by itself no one's going to get convicted by just demonstrating motive. It's really secondary.

the fact is Karl broke the law.

Not if she wasn't and not if he didn't know. I mean if you're concerned about the actual law.

widebody911 07-13-2005 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
Not if she wasn't and not if he didn't know. I mean if you're concerned about the actual law.
It depends on the defintion of "is"... :)

lendaddy 07-13-2005 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
If I speed, but not on purpose, and am caught by the state police, do I still get a ticket?
That's simply not the way this law is written...and you know it. I'm not trying to weasel him out here.....I honestly think he didn't know AND that she wasn't. Again I ask why would this be revenge? What did Karl(or any other Republican) get outta the deal?

Shaun @ Tru6 07-13-2005 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
Not if she wasn't and not if he didn't know. I mean if you're concerned about the actual law.
ignorance is not a viable defense, especially for someone in Rove's position.

lendaddy 07-13-2005 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by widebody911
It depends on the defintion of "is"... :)
Not even close

Shaun @ Tru6 07-13-2005 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by widebody911
It depends on the defintion of "is"... :)
Thom, got the 993TT brake set up out tonight via UPS. Did you see my second gear woes post? Dog teeth are almost certainly everywhere except attached to the cog itself.

lendaddy 07-13-2005 06:33 PM

Holy crap guys, this isn't an attempt to ask for lenience, it's the actual; law.

fintstone 07-13-2005 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by widebody911
It depends on the defintion of "is"... :)
Not at all. Once again...it has not been shown that he broke any law, intended to break any law, or even meant to do any harm whatsoever.

Liberals on this BBS have been saying for years that Rove was the "evil genius".. the "mastermind" that got a bumpkin and moron from Texas elected"...........twice.

If that were true....don't you think that if he was out to do some sort of dirty deed...he would have been smart (or sneaky) enough to send an anonymous note to out Plame?

For once, try to think for yourself.

Moneyguy1 07-13-2005 06:34 PM

fint: THe source of the article? Did I miss it?

fintstone 07-13-2005 06:37 PM

The last one?...NRO

lendaddy 07-13-2005 06:37 PM

If my neighbor works at the CIA and I know it:


A year later I say to a reporter "my neighbor is in the CIA and he says........"

I should go to jail? Even though everyone on the block knew he worked for the CIA, but never thought he was a covert agent?

Shaun @ Tru6 07-13-2005 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
If my neighbor works at the CIA and I know it:


A year later I say to a reporter "my neighbor is in the CIA and he says........"

I should go to jail? Even though everyone on the block knew he worked for the CIA, but never thought he was a covert agent?

Joel, if your neighbor works for the CIA and is covert, you wouldn't know he works for the CIA. And you certainly wouldn't be able to borrow any "extra-cool" power tools.

Shaun @ Tru6 07-13-2005 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fintstone
The last one?...NRO
What is NRO?

I'll be setting up the booth on the 28th, Sunday. Monday will be a long day, first of the show. Tuesday night would be good.

let me know.

lendaddy 07-13-2005 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
Joel, if your neighbor works for the CIA and is covert, you wouldn't know he works for the CIA. And you certainly wouldn't be able to borrow any "extra-cool" power tools.
Shaun, are you saying no one knew she was in the CIA?


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