So Fint, rcecale et al- about US Military lies.

[stuartj]

For the record- Its not my intent to start a discussion on the rights or wrongs of the Tillman incident.

It certainly is my intent is to hold this incident out as an example- a well documented and supported example- of type of manipulation and lies dished out by the US military.

[djmcmath]

Stu or 350 -- when is the last time you fired a .50 caliber machine gun?

[350HP930]

Why do you ask? Does it somehow justify shooting at a target you can't identify or does it make shooting at people who are attempting to surrender OK?

[djmcmath]

Ok, let me ask it a little differently ... you've been to the track, right? In fact, iirc, you're something of a track junkie, right? You feel competent to talk about racing, and about handling and vehicle dynamics, about engine noise, and The Line, and helmet selection, and that sort of thing, right? If someone who had never driven a car came up to you and announced that you were a crappy driver, because from their location in the stands, it was clear that you had missed the obvious line, and you should have seen it, and all drivers are lying sacks and blah blah blah, you'd probably just ignore him, right?

So I've got two guys who have probable never even seen a .50 caliber machine gun telling me that the user of said machine gun should have been able to hear human voices at a great distance over that ruckus? They should have known the other guys were trying to surrender, because they yelled? Over a .50 cal? You've got to be kidding me.

I don't know, 350, I somehow feel the need to tell you how to restore a 930, despite the fact that I couldn't identify all the parts of a turbo system if they were neatly laid out and labeled.

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by 350HP930
Yeah, I guess reading isn't one of your strong suites. You say 'fog of war', but here are the details of the cluster****. I guess guys screaming and waving their arms at their attackers is their way of saying 'shoot at us some more'.

the Post said Army investigators concluded.

Reading may be your strong suite....but appartently so is believeing second and even third hand information and proclaiming it as gosple truth.

the POST?

[kach22i]

Originally posted by djmcmath
So I've got two guys who have probable never even seen a .50 caliber machine gun telling me that the user of said machine gun should have been able to hear human voices at a great distance over that ruckus? They should have known the other guys were trying to surrender, because they yelled? Over a .50 cal? You've got to be kidding me.

350HP930 posted part of a report, it speaks for it's self.

I know people who have fired 50 cal's, as far as I know they did not do it blindfolded.

The report said they killed the local guy helping them out because they thought he was Talliban - they could see clothing and facial features but still unloaded on their own guys after repositioning for a better view?

Sad story, covered up with even more sadness.

[IROC]

Originally posted by djmcmath
If someone who had never driven a car came up to you and announced that you were a crappy driver, because from their location in the stands, it was clear that you had missed the obvious line, and you should have seen it, and all drivers are lying sacks and blah blah blah, you'd probably just ignore him, right?

This analogy has never made sense to me. I have a few track miles under my belt (thousands) and if some "spectator" came up to me afterwards with some *valid* criticism, I would obviously have to agree. Just because he might have a hard time actually driving the correct line doesn't mean he doesn't know what the correct line is.

I can't sing to save my life, but that doesn't mean I can't tell when other people can't carry a tune.

Now, if there was some intrinsic knowledge about the Tillman situation that could only be gleaned by actually shooting a .50 caliber machine gun, then you're argument might hold more water. I don't think that was the point you were trying to make, though.

Mike

[tobster1911]

To me it all amount to arm-chair QB'ing. Hind-sight 20/20 and all that.

[djmcmath]

You can't hear s*** over a .50 cal. And if you're wildly unloading .50 caliber rounds downrange, there's not a whole lot of waving going on, either. Anything getting waved around is going to get shot at. For this story to make sense, you have to put yourself in the position of these soldiers -- and unless you've fired some weapons, or been in a combat situation, that's pretty tough to do. I sincerely doubt they heard Tillman, or if they did, I can't imagine they could have understood what he was saying or recognized his voice. I'm sure the waving was quite apparent to those hiding behind the rocks with Tillman, but probably much less apparent to those on the other end of the machine guns.

There are facts of combat that you can't understand unless you've been there. I'll buy valid criticism, but this isn't even an educated criticism. A tragic mistake happened, and rather than mourning the loss, and more than just punishing the mistake, you'd like to apply a broad and inaccurate brush to the entire military, based on zero experience and zero applicable knowledge.

//shaking head// Whatever.

[350HP930]

So you are saying that the shooter's superiors coming to the conclusion that he screwed up and drumming him out of the special forces is also a case of those who don't understand war engaging in armchair quarterbacking?

Thats a pretty weak argument but I guess you want to discuss anything but military lies.

By your statements it appears that you are the only person that you think is qualified to pass judgement on military screw ups.

By your logic (or lack of it) if I ever enter a turn too hot and ball up my car are you saying that no one else is allowed to have an opinion about it unless they were in the car with me and/or are an expert driver?

[Tim Hancock]

djmc,

Apparently, once bitten by the US hating bug, all logical attempts at curing the ensuing disease are pointless.

[Seahawk]

It certainly is my intent is to hold this incident out as an example- a well documented and supported example- of type of manipulation and lies dished out by the US military.

Stuart is right...but to what end other than the obvious, that all organizations lie to some degree, either blantantly, poorly or as covertly as possible to either manipulate a mistake or champion a cause.
So what is your point, Stu? Was there a point in your life where you believed otherwise? Were you ever so gullible?
Santa and the Tooth Fairy are helping me with some engine work this weekend, you coming?

[rcecale]

Originally posted by 350HP930
By your logic (or lack of it) if I ever enter a turn too hot and ball up my car are you saying that no one else is allowed to have an opinion about it unless they were in the car with me and/or are an expert driver?

How else would we know that the reason you entered your turn hot was because the doobie you were toking on at the time had dropped it's ember into your lap. DAMN, that thing was hot, wasn't it? Got to burning so bad, it took your attention off the task at hand (that would be driving...) You started squirming all over your seat to get at it and put it out and BAM...right into the wall.

Sure, I wasn't there to see it, but I know your type. Who needs an investigation, anyway? I've already determined the cause of your fuch up. Anything you tell me to the contray is just a bunch of bs lies.

Randy

[andrewmr]

Originally posted by 350HP930
Thats a pretty weak argument but I guess you want to discuss anything but military lies.

Ok, I'll bite. But take it easy on me cause I'm just some redneck from the south (that lives up north) and I'm not near as smart as you......

Ok, I agree with you, they lied. Now what? What's your point?

I'm almost certain there is one or two more lies out there. Does that make them the evil empire?

Now here's a couple of questions (and a rationalization) for you. Do you speed? Have you ever rolled through a stop sign? Have you ever passed a car in a no passing zone? Have you ever copied a CD/tape? Cheated on your taxes? If you have answered yes to any of those, can I now assume you are a no good criminal? Are you destined to become a mass murderer?

If you are so at odds with this country/government why don't you get the F' out of it. I'm pretty sure France would take you

[bryanthompson]

Andrew, welcome to PPOT.

[rcecale]

Andrew, it looks like you'll fit in here just fine!

Randy

[andrewmr]

Originally posted by rcecale
Andrew, it looks like you'll fit in here just fine!

Randy

I just call 'em like I see 'em.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by andrewmr

Ok, I agree with you, they lied. Now what? What's your point?

I'm almost certain there is one or two more lies out there. Does that make them the evil empire?

Thats a wonderful first step, well done. Now take a leap of faith.

You have agreed that the US military lied. So when you see a US military spokesman make a statement like this:

"During the operation, coalition forces came under hostile fire and close air support was provided," it said in a statement. Soldiers at the scene then recovered weapons, Iraqi dinar and Syrian pounds (worth approximately £800), foreign passports and a "Satcom radio", presumably a satellite telephone.

"We took ground fire and we returned fire," said Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the US military in Iraq. "We estimate that around 40 were killed. But we operated within our rules of engagement."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1221658,00.html

Remember the Tillman incident, and ask yourself if there may a reason the truth might be not be forthcoming.

There may be hope for you, welcome to the board.

[strother]

Originally posted by andrewmr
If you are so at odds with this country/government why don't you get the F' out of it. I'm pretty sure France would take you

I've never understood this sentiment. One can love their country yet hate what any given group has done to it. And dogging France is so 2003. The hip are dogging Spain this year.

[rcecale]

Lies, eh, stu?

AN ARAB 'FUNERAL'
An Israeli drone flying over Jenin on Monday, April 28 caught a modern-day resurrection. Well, sort of.

As Arab propaganda cameras rolled, pallbearers repeatedly tried to carry a "dead" man wrapped in a green blanket. The only problem is that he couldn't keep his balance and kept falling. A highlight: At 1:35 on the film, a crowd of onlookers quickly breaks up, when the "corpse" picks himself off the floor and gets back up on the stretcher.

If the purpose of this video were not so EVIL, it would belong on one of those Dick Clark TV specials. After the 'massacre' and now this, can you believe ANYTHING the Arabs say? To view, click
here.

I suppose this would mean that anything and everything said (or even done) by any Arab (whether they were terrorists or not) would be a lie.

Are you beginning to see how ridiculous you sound yet, stu?

Randy