H-P To Lay Off 14.5K

[Moneyguy1]

len...So the truth of the matter is you are not so much a "maker" as an "importer?" Strange, but I was going to ask the question if Joe's Shop down the street started importing parts similar to what you were building and underpricing you by a good amount, how would that affect your business, but I already have the answer. Thanks. It is much clearer now.

Cheers!!

[legion]

I interpret Len's posts not so much as this is a good thing, but that this is reality and we need to learn to cope with it. We can try to be defensive, but this will at best delay the inevitable.

Rather than bemoaning the loss of jobs, we need to come up with strategies that make doing business here attractive.

[island911]

. . . oh, and you lib's; don't forget to jump on GW neck for getting into other counties shi-stuff. skip along, squish the bad GW, la la la la la.

So what if Clinton opened the flood gates for China .. .la la la la la. . .that's old news . .. la la l'la la la la.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by nostatic
Len, you're not talking about a life "better than our parents." Isn't that the American way? And once we stop buying all this new stuff what happens to our economy? Oh yeah...it collapses since it is based almost entirely on consumer spending.

I fail to see how you are optimistic. I see 1929 all over again. But then again, maybe that will be "better" for us...

ni hao ma?

This is short term stuff, I'm not predicting doom and gloom. In fact I think we already went through the worst of this cycle and are on the way back.

I really wish reality could fit inside your fairytales and sense of "fairness", but it doesn't always work that way.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by legion
I interpret Len's posts not so much as this is a good thing, but that this is reality and we need to learn to cope with it. We can try to be defensive, but this will at best delay the inevitable.

Rather than bemoaning the loss of jobs, we need to come up with strategies that make doing business here attractive.

That is EXACTLY it, thanks.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
len...So the truth of the matter is you are not so much a "maker" as an "importer?" Strange, but I was going to ask the question if Joe's Shop down the street started importing parts similar to what you were building and underpricing you by a good amount, how would that affect your business, but I already have the answer. Thanks. It is much clearer now.

Cheers!!

No Bob, I don't import anything. I make and process metal products here. I don't purchase a single thing from outside this country(directly ofcourse). I have customers in Mexico, Canada and Germany though.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by lendaddy
This is short term stuff, I'm not predicting doom and gloom. In fact I think we already went through the worst of this cycle and are on the way back.

I really wish reality could fit inside your fairytales and sense of "fairness", but it doesn't always work that way.

where do you see *my* fairlytale in my post? It is a classic american dream of having a better life for our kids than we had. Been that way since this country started. Your posts are rather cavalier about that changing. And I don't see that as being very "short term". I'm with tabs on this we are witnessing the fall of the empire. And "making things more attractive for business" seems to be code for "allow those in the right place to keep making money."

The only advantage we have now is innovation. We need to leverage that as much as possible, and keep out in front. To do that we need a motivated populace and a good education system. Most of the "making things more attractive for business" ideas I've seen have little or nothing to do with that.

[legion]

I have several ideas:

1) More closely guard intellectual capital. We send it to China and India for free WHILE paying companies there to do our work. Who's really benefiting?

2) Abolish minimum wage. If we want manufacturing jobs to return, we need to be wage-competitive. We can't "force" other countries to raise their wages.

3) Take politics out of the education process. I have no idea how to accomplish this, but everything politicians touch related to education turns to crap. Funding is sent to special projects, instead of the general classroom. Even "No Child Left Behind", which I regard as the best attempt at accountability in education so far (rather than just blindly throwing money), leaves much to be desired.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by nostatic
where do you see *my* fairlytale in my post? It is a classic american dream of having a better life for our kids than we had. Been that way since this country started. Your posts are rather cavalier about that changing. And I don't see that as being very "short term". I'm with tabs on this we are witnessing the fall of the empire. And "making things more attractive for business" seems to be code for "allow those in the right place to keep making money."

The only advantage we have now is innovation. We need to leverage that as much as possible, and keep out in front. To do that we need a motivated populace and a good education system. Most of the "making things more attractive for business" ideas I've seen have little or nothing to do with that.

Ok, so the sky is falling and our best bet is to milk the Corporations as dry as we can while they're still here? After that, we're all screwed. About right?

That's not the country I live in.

[stevepaa]

where did that non-sequitur come from?
I do not see the connection between what we have expected, what will now happen and milking the corporations.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by stevepaa
where did that non-sequitur come from?
I do not see the connection between what we have expected, what will now happen and milking the corporations.

Well if you don't want to mke America more attreactive for business and you you don't like the status quo, wjhat are you left with?

[nostatic]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Ok, so the sky is falling and our best bet is to milk the Corporations as dry as we can while they're still here? After that, we're all screwed. About right?

That's not the country I live in.

wtf?

Typical knee jerk crap that I'd expect from a bleeding heart liberal...

Try reading again. We need to motivate the populace and do education right. Where did I say anything about milking corporations? The problem is *EVERYBODY* has to sacrifice. The worker *and* management.

We're in deep ***** right now, but very few people seem to be willing to acknowledge it. The cavalier "let's make it business friendly here and it will all work out" is a fools paradise. imho we are on the brink of serious economic collapse...not a correction. We have a huge trade imbalance, we are in debt up to our eyeballs, and our economy is now based on consumer spending. As we bleed "good" jobs (whether they are overpaid or not is up for discussion), we replace them with service sector jobs. Consumer spending eventually goes away. Interest rates climb. Foreclosures increase. Meanwhile we wait for the outsource contries to have their revolutions so we can start to be "competitive again".

So which America do you live in? The one that blindly goes on "business as usual" or the one that admits that we are in the *real* fight of our lives and choses to engage the hard problems with society?

The real enemy is not the external terrorists...it is the internal populace that believes the "American way" will continue without hard work or critical thinking...and the politicians and business leaders who take advantage of them.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Well if you don't want to mke America more attreactive for business and you you don't like the status quo, wjhat are you left with?

black or white thinking...I love it.

[stevepaa]

I am not sure we can make the US more attractive for business. The wealth distribution tidal wave is on.

You can't control the wave, you just need to learn to surf.

And for those who can't surf, they will drown.

[legion]

Originally posted by stevepaa
I am not sure we can make the US more attractive for business. The wealth distribution tidal wave is on.

You can't control the wave, you just need to learn to surf.

And for those who can't surf, they will drown.

So do we gracefully retire into socialist governments, like Europe?

[lendaddy]

Sorry Todd, you're just not thinking on this one.

Corportaions don't have feelings, they will do what makes them the most money. That's their purpose in this world. You think you can moderate their purpose? Best of luck!

We live here, Corporations don't "live" anywhere. Better opportunities elsewhere means a relocation. You want companies to sacrifice along with the citizens and I want the power to fly.

Reality my friend.

[cowtown]

Originally posted by nostatic
We need to motivate the populace and do education right. Where did I say anything about milking corporations? The problem is *EVERYBODY* has to sacrifice. The worker *and* management.

We're in deep ***** right now, but very few people seem to be willing to acknowledge it.

...

I agree with these sentiments. The problem is, I have absolutely no idea how we go about changing an educational system and entitlement culture that are so utterly gridlocked and resistant to improvement. Day to day life ain't bad; in fact it's good for most poeple. There's no sense of emergency whatsoever.

In California, it is absolutely impossible to "reform" anything related to education. The state Superintendent, Board of Ed, Teachers Union (my personal favorite whipping boy but that's just me), or Governor are guaranteed to block it, no matter what "it" is.

So we stratify ourselves even further. Those who can afford to put their kids in great private schools and spend time with them educating them at home. In a few years, we will have two societies, and we all go down together. I see it already every time I drive through Sacramento or the Bay Area. It's really depressing. When I think about the long term future of the US, it makes me want to reinstate my Irish citizenship and move over there. And when a middle-class American's talking about moving to Ireland for socioeconomic reasons, that's pretty bad. But like I said, day-to-day life is just great.

Education, obesity, service industry, debt...collapse.

[legion]

Originally posted by cowtown
I agree with these sentiments. The problem is, I have absolutely no idea how we go about changing an educational system and entitlement culture that are so utterly gridlocked and resistant to improvement. Day to day life ain't bad; in fact it's good for most poeple. There's no sense of emergency whatsoever.

In California, it is absolutely impossible to "reform" anything related to education. The state Superintendent, Board of Ed, Teachers Union (my personal favorite whipping boy but that's just me), or Governor are guaranteed to block it, no matter what "it" is.

So we stratify ourselves even further. Those who can afford to put their kids in great private schools and spend time with them educating them at home. In a few years, we will have two societies, and we all go down together. I see it already every time I drive through Sacramento or the Bay Area. It's really depressing. When I think about the long term future of the US, it makes me want to reinstate my Irish citizenship and move over there. And when a middle-class American's talking about moving to Ireland for socioeconomic reasons, that's pretty bad. But like I said, day-to-day life is just great.

Education, obesity, service industry, debt...collapse.

Very perceptive. I fear it's not just education that is so entrenched. Everything is entrenched. Any changes in this country are met with stiff resistence and endless debate...

[nostatic]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Sorry Todd, you're just not thinking on this one.

Corportaions don't have feelings, they will do what makes them the most money. That's their purpose in this world. You think you can moderate their purpose? Best of luck!

We live here, Corporations don't "live" anywhere. Better opportunities elsewhere means a relocation. You want companies to sacrifice along with the citizens and I want the power to fly.

Reality my friend.

well, then maybe the people will start to leave too. And it will likely be the smart ones first.

[dd74]

Well, Americans seem too complacent to have a revolution, or even know what a revolution is, so I imagine a collapse is more eminent.

I'd like to know, however, who's guilty of "milking" corporations when it's the corporations who initially set themselves up with pensions, profit sharing, etc., to get milked in the first place?

Oh, wait! Pensions and profit sharing. Went out in the '90s right?