Why the Italians and French do not drive Hondas and Toyotas

[cantdrv55]

I thought it was because their governments put such a huge tariff on those cars but the few Frenchies and Italians I asked tell me otherwise. It seems that even though they find Hondas and Toyotas more reliable and as affordable, they also find them rather bland. Some of the cops in Italy drive Subaru STIs and even in light blue and white cop colors, those arent bland at all. Its true though even that the base model Puegeots, Lancias, Fiats and Renaults look way sportier than the average Civic.

Now we all know Europeans like to look good everywhere so it seems style wins over function even when it comes to cars. Do you think if American cars were as stylish, Americans would buy more Detroit products? Can Americans be as style conscious as the Europeans? Or, will quality and reliability be the deciding factor always?

[kach22i]

Originally posted by cantdrv55
Do you think if American cars were as stylish, Americans would buy more Detroit products? Can Americans be as style conscious as the Europeans? Or, will quality and reliability be the deciding factor always?

Mustang and Chrysler 300, heck add in the Caddy CTS all have "American Style". All are selling well is my point. In the American market there is a thin line that is hard to hit - it's 3-D. Style, Quality and Price...........okay it not 3-D it's SQP.

[yellowline]

I think many had bad experiences with Detroit in the '70s and '80s, when they deserved a bad rep. But they're putting out products that are at least average today. You have to remember that the average moves with GM. Since they're the #1 seller, they are the biggest factor in determining the average quality statistics. Therefore, they'll never get much better than average, even though the average quality will continue to increase.

Word is that the '06s will have more realistic prices and no gimmicks. That should help take care of price.

Style is purely subjective. Some like daring, like the new Caddys. Others like a predictable Camry.

But I think we're pretty spoiled with the Porsches. Many American cars (even many Japanese and some European cars included) won't match a Porsche or BMW 3 in driving dynamics. But just about all cars on the road today are made pretty well. Price and style are subjective though.

I think perception of the Big Three is slowly changing, but people do need to be more open to them.

[Joeaksa]

One thing that most people do not realize is that its not the cost of the imported cars in Europe, its the duty and tariff's put on the spare parts to keep them going.

When I lived there we had loads of flight crews bringing back car parts on the airline to be able to afford to own the car.

Joe A

[artplumber]

There is a lot of national (and less so european) pride over there as well which makes it tougher to sell cars which are not from the EU.

Just look at the number of Porsches, VW's, BMW's, MB's etc in Germany.

Also all one has to do is read the Brit car mags (EVO, Car, etc). You can see they have a very prominent Brit bias, followed by anything from the US is junk (whether or not it is).

[911pcars]

American cars probably represent the biggest variety of makes and models through the years of all manufacturers. But observe their styling and the quality issues with these cars over, say 20 years and you'll know why Europeans (and many Americans) stay away from them.

I used to think the suits at Ford, Chevy, Olds, etcs. were holding back the good stuff because they were afraid of producing styles too far advanced for consumer's tastes. I was wrong. I waited and I still am. It's not happening. So why wait? Buy the product you want instead of waiting for something that's obviously not going to happen soon (based on my observations). I don't even get excited about their concept cars anymore. Do you know why? They cost $1 mil to make (Big deal. Make one the average person can afford), and they don't get made. They're at the car shows to persuade the crowds they make cars as nice as this one (Remember, the thing costs $1 mil) and they generate foot traffic around their mundane products. Look Marge. Isn't that Caprice roomy?

I'm still not sure what's wrong with these companies. Are their designers and engineers really so bad or lack the vision or imagination as witnessed by the majority (not all) of vehicles we see on the road, or are the suits so disconnected from the realities of what consumers want and/or need they won't allow the correct product to be made? Maybe a combination of the two? Perhaps we as consumers don't demand enough.

Many consumers, including myself, don't care any more. With some exceptions, GM, Ford, et al, prove me right every time they introduce their new models. If you haven't noticed, the current "style" is retro. Retro is a euphemism for, "we don't have a design clue. Instead,let's resurrect a popular design from the archives for some freshening and call it new." I bet they're prepping either a retro '56 Chevy Bel Air, 67 Corvette or '82 Monte Carlo for 2007.

To repeat from an earlier rant on the subject. Forward thinking companies (like Porsche, BMW and others) look forward, not backwards.

MHO,
Sherwood

[kach22i]

Originally posted by 911pcars
and they generate foot traffic around their mundane products. Look Marge. Isn't that Caprice roomy?

MHO,
Sherwood

Dude you are singing my song I agree with most of what you said - and liked the humor too. However it's all about getting the highest production numbers - volume.

Americans are a conservative bunch when placed on a world scale, this includes automobile style. However the other side of the sword is when we do things we do them boldly or in excess. Conservate and bold, not liberal and sensitive - and I am not talking politics here.

Look at the progressive automobile designs on the market you though Americans should buy. Look at their actual production numbers, not volume products are they?

So the question is; why is volume so important, can't they build just as many cars but more variety?

We know they are working on this, and there are many reasons that capacity outstrips demand. So before the union bashing starts or fire all of the executives begins I'm ending my little rant.

[wludavid]

Originally posted by 911pcars
If you haven't noticed, the current "style" is retro. Retro is a euphemism for, "we don't have a design clue. Instead,let's resurrect a popular design from the archives for some freshening and call it new." I bet they're prepping either a retro '56 Chevy Bel Air, 67 Corvette or '82 Monte Carlo for 2007.

They've been doing this for awhile, the "new" Mustang has been a throwback since MY1994. It works because it capitalizes on people who have fond memories of their earlier cars from their youths. What's going to happen when there aren't any people with fond memories of American cars? I guess they'll have to find a new gimmick.

To repeat from an earlier rant on the subject. Forward thinking companies (like Porsche, BMW and others) look forward, not backwards.

And the price Porsche and BMW pay for looking forward tends to be a lack of reliability. I wish they would concentrate on core-competencies like driving dynamics and performance and leave the whiz-bang electronic gizmos to MB. BMW has some really great cars that frighten me about how painful they will be to maintain when the miles of wiring gets kinked or the connectors start corroding.

[911pcars]

"And the price Porsche and BMW pay for looking forward tends to be a lack of reliability. I wish they would concentrate on core-competencies like driving dynamics and performance and leave the whiz-bang electronic gizmos to MB. BMW has some really great cars that frighten me about how painful they will be to maintain when the miles of wiring gets kinked or the connectors start corroding."

wludavid,
I completely agree. Cars don't have to be as complicated as they are. They seem to include the mindless assortment of ECU-controlled gizmos to help rationalize the uptick in price every year.

I was mainly opining about styling and overall design rather than the really superflous "forward thinking application" of local area networked power windows, seat vibrators and auto. door locks, ECU-controlled blower motors and such.

Ahh, for the good old days when one could just jump into the Pacer...

Sherwood

[jgiroux67]

Most american cars are realy poor quaility, I dont think I will ever buy one other than an old muscle car.

[Mr Beau]

Driving between the Western European countires, there's a rather obvious slant to the cars you see. In France, most everyone has a Peugeot, Citroen, or Renault. In Spain, it's Seat. In Italy, it's Fiat and Lancia. In the UK, you see a lot of Rovers, Jags, etc. Germany, nothing but VW, BMW, Benz, and Opel.

Is each car the best choice for each respective country? Probably not, so you can't explain the choice based on "rational" differences between the cars. National pride can go a long way in the marketplace.

[onewhippedpuppy]

The sad thing for me is, I would LOVE to be able to get excited about product offerings from Ford, GM, or Chrysler, but compared to the European imports, I can't. Sadly, I am in the minority, and I believe that this is why American cars continue to lag behind in quality and style. Why invest any more money in the American market if they don't have to?

Of all the US companies it seems to me that Chrysler is making the greatest effort to improve the quality and appeal of their new cars, probably because they're technically a German company now. What makes me the most angry about this issue is the fact that Ford especially has great cars that are at the top of their catagories in Europe, and they don't feel the need to bring them to their home market. Case in point, when Europe got a nice fully re-styled Focus recently, they changed the front end on the US one and called it good. Why? Because we as a country are stupid and cheap, and will buy crap if it doesn't cost much. Even though Ford spent millions in development cost to make a new Focus for the European market, they didn't feel the need to further test and certify the car for the US because they didn't have to. The Mondeo and RS series of Focus are two more car lines that would be nice to see in the US, and GM has some nice products under the Opel namesake.

The point of my rant, until the majority of Americans start to care that their interior is made of cheap shiny plastic, their new car rattles over bumps, has an engine designed in 1962, and looks like a rental car, nothing will change. We must all be idiots for a sale, GM has greatly improved sales with this emplyoee pricing, and the others are now following suit. A Taurus is still dull and unimpressive, no matter what the price.

[928ram]

If you haven't noticed, the current "style" is retro. Retro is a euphemism for, "we don't have a design clue. Instead,let's resurrect a popular design from the archives for some freshening and call it new." I bet they're prepping either a retro '56 Chevy Bel Air, 67 Corvette or '82 Monte Carlo for 2007.

To repeat from an earlier rant on the subject. Forward thinking companies (like Porsche, BMW and others) look forward, not backwards.

This always amuses me on a Porsche board; a company who's main model strives to retain it's identity from 40 years ago and whose second line model borrows from even further back.

Let's face it, everything that can be done in automotive design has been done before; so what's old is new again, again.

Retro is good; what was eye-pleasing 20-30-50 years ago is still eye pleasing today, maybe even more so.

Of course thru auto design history there was alot of bland and odd which can still be found today from all makers; so I guess that's retro too?

[911pcars]

Brand identity is one thing through styling cues. None of Porsche's current lineup includes a mid-engine, 4-cylinder car, nor is a Boxster a near copy of a 550 Spyder even though it's style was inspired by it.

IMO, the term "retro design" is a styling cop-out by relying on nostalgia and/or childhood memories to sell cars. I would welcome Porsche to produce a retro 906 or 962. That'd be great, but it'd still be a retro design.

Even if the Ford GT is a great car (by all accounts it is, especially for the price), This was more of an engineering and manufacturing challenge rather that a "design" issue (body shape).

Sherwood

[jyl]

The Europeans make some great cars. We laugh at Renault, Citroen, Fiat, etc here but those cars are well-designed for the European environment. The advantages of Toyota, Honda, etc are not pronounced. And when you think about BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW, Alfa, etc, well, would you rather have a BMW or a Toyota?.

The Americans, on the other hand, make a lot of terrible cars. The gaps between a Toyota and a GM is pretty big.

This is in addition to protectionist policies (taxes and so on).

[Mr Beau]

Funny thing is that it is often cheaper to buy a Peugeot in other West European countries than in France. I wonder if it's a case of "charging what the (nationalistic) market will bear"...??

[yellowline]

Proving my point that perception lags reality.

[artplumber]

Originally posted by jyl
The Europeans make some great cars.... The advantages of Toyota, Honda, etc are not pronounced. And when you think about BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW, Alfa, etc, well, would you rather have a BMW or a Toyota?.

The Americans, on the other hand, make a lot of terrible cars. The gaps between a Toyota and a GM is pretty big.

This is in addition to protectionist policies (taxes and so on).

Umm anyone here remember some great fiats, citroens etc? Have you seen the latest new quality surveys? GM is essentially as good as Toyota, Honda etc. They may not "inspire", but the vaunted quality gap is hogwash. Furthermore, take a close look at BMW & MB quality (in terms of frequency of repairs) - it truly sucks. The attitude that all american cars are bad is based on old data. Can anyone remember the Toyota's & Honda's of the 60's? They were also junk.
The european car buyers are a lot more patriotic than american get-the-best-deal-you-can-who-cares-who-makes-it car buyers.