... or freshly re-skinned seats

Re: wise men and ladies gather around
 

Everyone has an opinion. Everyone has their own set of moral values in how you should proceed. The likelyhood of receiving advise that fits into your moral and ethical values if for you, and you alone to determine.

First, you don't have to be married to have a child.
Second, you don't have to be married to love another.
Finally, you don't have to be married to be a good father.

Getting married is ultimate sacrifice. Marriage is a legal bond, nothing more. You will not love your girl any more than you do now. Marriage will not provide any guarentee that you will stay together.. In fact, it may do just the opposite. You are already entering the idea of marriage with reservations. If you wish to live the REST OF YOUR LIFE with these reservations, go aheaed and get married.

You will always love your child. Marriage will not change that. You wil be the father you chose to be, and marriage will not change that.

If you do get married, get a prenupt. If you don't know how, then find out. Again, marriage is a contract in law. Would you enter a partnership without a contract?

I have no idea why "she quit drinking" has any effect on your decision.

You, my friend, have answered your own question. You do not want to marry this girl. If you did, you would not have reservations. Just realize you now have a life-long bond with this woman as she will have your child. A marriage certificate will not change how you feel about her for the better.

Re: Re: wise men and ladies gather around
 

That's the mantra of part-time fathers. Repeat it often enough and you might start to believe it.

Re: Re: Re: wise men and ladies gather around
 

Moses, I have to respectfully disagree.

You can have sex without getting married. So you can impregniate without being married.

If you were in love before you were married, you have proven you do not have to be married to love.

I know fathers who are married and bad parents. I know fathers who are not married and are wonderful fathers. It follows (IME) that marriage has no impact on a person ability to be a good father.

Re: Re: Re: Re: wise men and ladies gather around
 

Obviously there is a difference between being a father and being a sperm donor.

The single greatest predictor of lifelong poverty is having a baby out of wedlock.

Children whose fathers marry their mothers are less likely to use drugs, go to jail or be homeless, while children whose parents are married are more likely to graduate college.

It's just the way it is.

One of the key items that keeps coming up in your reservations is you "Selfishness."

Frankly; If your in the right relationship with the right girl it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Before I got married my "selfishness" involved my car (914 at the time) and my hobbies (model airplanes, surfing, etc).

None of those things have stopped and the marriage has never gotten in the way of them.

In fact - my wife has been nothing but supportive of the things I do and I have done my best to return the favor.

My wife's friend gave her some advice. "Give your husband the time to do the things he wants to do and he'll be the best husband he can." The only caveat was "Unless what he wants to do is chase other women."

If that's what you want to do...then clearly there's an issue you won't get past. But if it's just the toys and the things you want to do - well it will slow down while you have a newborn and then as they age you will get to rediscover those things with that child. I never knew how important being a dad was.

My Dad married my mom when she was pregnant with me; he was 21 and she was 17. After 13 years and two more children they were fighting like cats and dogs. They didn't divorce until their 25th anniversary. My childhood wasn't bad though - it had rough spots. Hearing my parents argue about rough subjects such as sex when I was 13 was damaging. I'm lucky that I learned from it the way I did rather than being so negatively effected by it like other children (my brother and sister) were. Now my brother had some serious drug problems and couldn't hold a job for a long time. My sister simply doesn't have relationships.

My Parents were always there and always supportive of us regardless of their feelings for eachother. My dad would work the early shift to be home when we got home from school. My mom works very hard as well; perhaps too hard. It was always a burden to know that they were unhappy and the children in my family carry that guilt to this day. So if you don't love her and don't KNOW that you can't live without her - don't marry her.

Just remember; What moses said is right. If you and this woman aren't together while this child is growning it will negatively effect him (Assuming). If you are together and you don't love eachother - chances are bad with that as well. it's unfortunate if you're in the position of picking the lesser of two evils - that sort of thing should be reserved for picking a president - not what to do in the event of a child.

Children need parents for their entire lives. Husbands need wives and wives need husbands - no matter how independant you may think you are. When you have the love of your life sleeping next to you a lot of other things simply don't matter. When you are taking a nap with your son sleeping soundly on your chest no matter how loud you snore (or when you snore in unison together) you'll know if you're truely selfish.

Back to the selfish...

Having autonomy in making choices is rough for anyone to give up I think. "Asking permission" to spend money just shouldn't be how it is. You both should know what you have and sure large purchases need input from both but in the end I hope you're responsible and that she is as well.

Prenup...whatever.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: wise men and ladies gather around
 

True, statistics do show this outcome. However, the fault in the analysis is the pool of individuals who are studied to compile this data. The base line for these studies start with unmarried couples already at or below the poverty level.

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/opre/strengthen/strengthfam/reports/conceptual_framework/framework_exesum.html

"Presentations involving long lists of the statistics on better outcomes for children and adults in married households can come across as simplistic and as slights to the successes of single parents. This might be avoided if the presenters acknowledge that marriage is not for everyone, that getting married is not a sure path to positive outcomes, that the real goal is to improve the chance of success, and that, other things being equal, a healthy marriage gives parents and children a better chance of success in many spheres of life."

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: wise men and ladies gather around
 

We see the same thing here in California the home of million dollar "tear down" houses and playground of the wealthy. Even in the wealthiest communities, the kids who have part-time dads are the ones failing in school, selling drugs, and cruising through life with no direction.

Spin it any way you like. It is the way it is.

I bet there's not one guy here with a ring on his left hand who didn't have the same fears, doubts, and feelings prior to marriage. Marriage and parenthood = change. Change = stress. By not having a committment you lessen your stress by knowing you have an easy out if things go sour. And that strategy is fine if we were just talking about marriage. But your perceived lack of committment ended when sperm met egg. You will always be this childs father... whether you're sleeping in the same bed as the mother or on opposite coasts. You're life HAS already changed.

What is it that Dr. Phil says? "It's best to make the right choice, but sometimes you have to make the choice right."

If you have significant assetts then get the pre-nup. That makes sense. Then file it away and try to forget it exists. Spend the pregnancy getting mentally prepared for fatherhood.

Note the number of dads that have responded to this thread (Porsche owning dads). Your life has changed - not ended. If I didn't have my daughter I may have taken my 911 out for a spin this morning. Instead I took an amazing 5 year old to school in the 911... at her request. There are great things about being single and great things about being a parent. You just don't understand how great it will be... yet. Change is good. Welcome to your new life.

Re: Re: wise men and ladies gather around
 

I am not understanding your logic against getting married. You say that it is the "ultimate sacrifice" in one sentence and then say it is nothing but legal paperwork.

You also seem to think that getting married with somehow cause people to split up?

Here is my question. IF you can be a create a child, be in love, and be a good father without being married, why NOT get married. If you are willing/choosing to do all these things what is stopping you from making that commitment public in the form of a marriage? The only reason that you would not want to "make it official" is if you think that you are not willing to make these commitments.

I am seriously thinking of getting married in the next year. No kid but I know the things I am pondering. I agree that having a child together is not enough reason in and of itself. But not getting married because you MIGHT get divorced, is like planning for failure. You might also die tomorrow, does that mean you should not live today?

Best of luck with your decision

Just a bit of all that I see in this:

You claim to be willing to "sort through the stones" because, after all, you "deserve it". But then you react defensively when the stones arrive.

Really? Your reasons for wanting a "kid" are...?

Parenting is all about modeling.
Cite some wholesome traits that you possess and that you would model to a child.

In what way do you suspect that you have errored [sic]? Say more about this, please.

If you love her and want this child, marry her...being a father is more than seeing the kid every-other weekend or every few days...it's about waking up in the middle of the night and being there for them if they need it...it's seeing them grow everyday...because the do...

I have 2 girls and 2 boys and the worst thing that could happen to me would be if I couldn't be with them all the time...

Marriage isn't easy, but neither is life...the path you've been traveling has changed and will take you in new directions you cannot prepare yourself for, yet they will be some of the best moments in your life...

Enjoy all of them...

...and CONGRATS!

i must clearify, she does not, or ever have a drinking problem. the meaning of that was if i was able to get a few drinks in her the pre-nump topic might be easier.

I guess what you mean is that she has stopped drinking because of her concern for her pregnancy. If so, then what you're saying is that you're willing for her to have "a few drinks" in order to increase the chances of you getting what you want. Is that it?

I'm going get my head bitten off for this one...but Moses....are unmarried fathers 'part-time' dads?......

I'm sure there's a reason why you say it but I'm too blind to see...

Or am I asking what do you mean by part time dad?

I'm lucky if I see my son during the week...yet I live with him and his mother...if I'm lucky I'll get a few minutes with him before I leave for work....and I'll get one pick up from kindern garden per week... and as much time at week ends as I like....being married to his mum wouldn't change the amount of time I get to spend with him or not, or hte amount of time I can spend with his mother, my partner...

The choice is made on a larger scale....dependent on respective work parameters and choices and expectations...it has nothing to do with marriage.

So the question should be.......is being a good, father, whatever that means, influenced by your martial status or your own commitment?

As I said before, the marriage bit is, from my point of view, less important than working out how to react to being a dad....how are you going to work on the balance of your 'priorities/ hobbies/ interests/ activites' and your new commitments in being a dad, be it full time or otherwise....how are you going work with a new partner...because your girlfriend will become a mother.. and from that moment on her own priorities will evolve and you will ahve to deal with that one.

But hey, having kids is great.. there is nothing better than your child saying 'Daddy'......

A couple of years ago, I was getting my hair cut.

The guy cutting my hair (for reasons that escape me) started going on and on about how his girlfriend wants to get married. His take was that he "didn't want to be tied down". He went on to say: "It is none of her business where I go or who I go with."

Then he mentioned that he lived with her, and she was the mother of his two kids. (He also started complaining that he should get a raise because he has a family.) He did a crappy job on the hair cut. I never went back to that place.

I guess I found it weird that he considered marriage to be a commitment, but not having children. I see having children as a much more serious commitment than marriage.

My .02

After reading all the posts, the thing that sticks out the most are the negative words surrounding marriage. "Sacrifice", is used so often in describing marriage that it amazes me that any one would get married. I am in my second marriage, I am lucky that someone out there loves me enough to want to share all of my shortcomings. K911, marriage is should not be first and foremost a "sacrifice" of ones life, but more so an addition, an enhancement, a chance to further oneself in the world. If you believe she is good enough to be a mother, it can't be a stretch to see her as your wife.
The struggle you may have internally seams to be based on loss of freedom and money. A child should never be measured against those items.

I wish you the best of luck. And wish health and happiness to your new family.

Mark

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: wise men and ladies gather around
 

I guess I too don't understand the meaning of "part time dad."

Bottom line is a person will be the father to the child they care to be. The decision on what type of father a man will be is up to them.Rich or poor, married or unmarried. I still don't see how a marriage decree changes anything beside a statiticians perception of reality.

It seems that if married couples provide a better enrivonment for chilred, then society should not limit the number of individuals who are permitted to be married. Perhapsthe Mormons have it right? Bigomous marriages would appear to provide more parents available for the child for a healthy and happy environment.

Marriage is not a sacrifice. MArriage is the path you choose to take or not.

no thats not it, don't be stupid. she never did drink except socially. that was merly an line to make light of running a pre-nump by her. what have YOU been drinking?