Christians.....why baptize?

[lendaddy]

Grandpa is some flavor of Protestant Reformed, not the extremely strict version though.

[gr8fl4porsche]

Originally posted by IROC
My only point was that atheism is defined as a lack of belief in god(s) Mike

Not exactly correct.

Atheism is "someone who denies the existence of god"
which is different than someone who lacks belief. If one is born and raised without ever hearing of god, they could lack belief, but they would not deny her existence.

Atheism is a choice, not a default.

[BGCarrera32]

Baptism is an affirmation of faith and important step in the Christian walk. John the baptist was very clear on this, and this in NT not OT. I was raised Lutheran and too many of them believe it is essential that a child get baptised as a baby so that they will receive God's gift should something happen to them as kids. The Lutheran church holds the same thing to be true with Confirmation (i.e. confirmation classes) typically done when the child is pre-adult/teen. Too many kids believe that once its done its like graduation; that's the end of it.

Baptism (water baptism) is something that is done when a person has made a concious decision to follow Christ, and base their life on the word (i.e. bible) and not that of church or man-made doctrine. It is a very personal decision to be taken seriously; and typically done publicly in the presence of their congregation, the individual must make that step on their own. Baptism is not for babies.

Skew it any way you want, its right their in the bible clear as a bell.

That said, I belong to an Assemblies of God congregation. We do baby dedications. Its a little dedication for a few minutes during the service, maybe 1 family with their baby/kids or multiple familes will have the whole congregation led by the pastor do a short prayer for the kids at the alter. Satisifes the rellies and introduces the kids. Could be for you, but you won't likely get that at a lutheran church.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by gr8fl4porsche
If one is born and raised without ever hearing of god, they could lack belief, but they would not deny her existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist

Atheism is the state either of being without theistic beliefs, or of actively believing in the non-existence of

Therefore, atheism is the default.

[IROC]

Originally posted by gr8fl4porsche
Not exactly correct.

Atheism is "someone who denies the existence of god"
which is different than someone who lacks belief. If one is born and raised without ever hearing of god, they could lack belief, but they would not deny her existence.

Atheism is a choice, not a default.

I see your point. "Atheism" technically means "without god", but you're right, the common meaning of the word now includes the "denial" part.

Good point.

Mike

[lendaddy]

BG,

Can you give me a little chapter/verse action on the baptism is a requirement thing? I seriously want to find it.

[stevepaa]

Merriam webster and what I have always meant by the words

atheist: one who believes that there is no deity

agnostic: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

There has always been a conflict between Protestants and Catholics on the meaning of Baptism.

Need to see what it means in his church.

[BGCarrera32]

lendaddy,

Probably the quickest thing to do is go to the link I have attached, read the first two paragraphs and the scripture associated that is listed. If you read the first two paragraphs, that will pretty quickly make it clear it is not intended for babies. Read the whole page, and tell me if a 12 month old can understand any of that. The meaning of baptism is much deeper than its made out to be by many.

Requirement? Romans 6:4 does it for me, also found on that page.

Regardless, not doing a baby baptism is not an excuse for *not* bringing up your children to know Christ (not ever guiding them towards salvation).

http://www.bible.com/answers/awbaptiz.html

I've had exactly the same discussion with others before; and you'll find that baby dedication usually makes the grandparents pretty happy. Don't turn the subject into a negative for it surely doesn't have to become that.

God bless-
BG

[Icemaster]

Originally posted by IROC
My 17 month-old daughter currently believes in the Wiggles.

My understanding of atheism vs agnosticism is that atheistic belief is an active effort to disprove the existence of god whereas agnostic just aint sure...lacks faith so to speak.

The Wiggles however are a different story altogether.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Icemaster
My understanding of atheism vs agnosticism is that atheistic belief is an active effort to disprove the existence of god whereas agnostic just aint sure...lacks faith so to speak.

Atheists don't actively try and disprove something they don't believe in the first place. An atheist is simply a person who does not believe that god(s) exists.

Mike

[stevepaa]

Protestant Reformed is a rather new church founded in 1924. They broke off from another church over the doctrine of common grace. They believe in the predestined elect over the concept of free will.

http://www.prca.org/principles.html

Q. 74. Are infants also to be baptized?

A. Yes: for since they, as well as the adult, are included in the covenant and church of God; and since redemption from sin by the blood of Christ, and the Holy Ghost, the author of faith, is promised to them no less than to the adult; they must therefore by baptism, as a sign of the covenant, be also admitted into the Christian church; and be distinguished from the children of unbelievers as was done in the old covenant or testament by circumcision, instead of which baptism is instituted in the new covenant.

Joel, there is every flavor of belief in the protestant churches. Been there. Don't like what this church doctrine says, go down the street.

What did your father do?

[Superman]

Babies are FAR more open minded than Atheists. To compare them is a great insult to babies, IMO.

I'd say the "what the heck" argument can be applied here, though I understand that a pastor might place pressure on parents as a condition of performing the ritual. I understand the pastor's point of view, but ultimately would call BS on that strategy if he takes it too far. It'd be a litmus test, in my view, to see what the pastor says when the following bottom line is presented: "No, we're not going to join your congregation, but here we are presenting you with an opportunity to baptize an infant in the name of Christ. Will you do this, or are you refusing?"

As most of you know, I am a practicing Catholic (not currently teaching CCD classes or anything), former Altar Boy, yadda yadda (who happens to also be comfortable around naked hippies) and you know my penchant for needling conservatives here, but I'll go ahead and give you the Church's position. Basides the sin you commit yourself (we all do, by choice, things we know are wrong), there is Original Sin. Sin we carry by association. By the nature of our fallen condition. Factually, we are separated from God. Another way to illustrate it is to point out what seems obvious to me, that being in the presence of God is impossible while you are "blemished." In order to achieve that, you will need to be completely unstained, and baptism removes the stain you have, but did not bring on yourself through your selfish (all sin is a matter of selfishness) decisions. That's somewhat of a description of the Church's position.

Now, I understand the head-scratching nature of a theology that seems to conclude that a perfectly innocent newborn baby would not be welcomed into God's arms. It is ludicrous to suggest that these little angels are sent to hell. They are not. But limbo is not regarded by me as a silly "oops" fill-in excuse for a failed theology. We make words and phrases and sentences to describe what we can nether describe, nor understand. So, when some of this stuff is head-scratching, the folks who think they are brilliant go to town pointing out how smart they are compared to Christians. Let's just say there are people they fail to impress this way.

My answer to many of these conundrums (babies not getting to go to Heaven, third world humans going to Hell because they've never even heard of Jesus Christ, and other assorted head-scratchers): It is my expectation that God is more generous, and more loving, than any of us can possibly fathom. In fact, as I look around me and see life, I think that's already irrefutably obvious (except that the geniuses keep trying). I think that salvation is something you can fail to choose. But I also think God is charitable and merciful beyond understanding.

Len, if you had a chance to put a penny in a well, and you knew that this would ensure that a certain terrible financial calamity would not befall your child, would you invest the penny?

[widebody911]

Originally posted by Superman
Babies are FAR more open minded than Atheists. To compare them is a great insult to babies, IMO.

And Atheists are FAR more open-minded than christians.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Superman

Len, if you had a chance to put a penny in a well, and you knew that this would ensure that a certain terrible financial calamity would not befall your child, would you invest the penny?

Fair enough, but there are many more fountains on this path.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by Superman
My answer to many of these conundrums (babies not getting to go to Heaven, third world humans going to Hell because they've never even heard of Jesus Christ, and other assorted head-scratchers): It is my expectation that God is more generous, and more loving, than any of us can possibly fathom.

So the same god that hates liberals, homosexuals and Californians actually loves babies and tribal bushmen; what about the babies of liberal bushmen? Do they ro-sham-bo to get into heaven? What about gay bushmen?

[Jims5543]

How old was Christ when he was baptized? Late 20's early 30's?

Model your sons life after Christs and let your grandfather know thats what you are doing, I would imagine he cannot argue with you on that.

[Superman]

Originally posted by widebody911
And Atheists are FAR more open-minded than christians.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've known a good number of atheists, who I consider very very different from agnostics, and I think it is fascinating that they think they are open-minded while they argue that the existence of God is a closed question.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by Jims5543
Model your sons life after Christs

Live with his parents until his 30's, no job, hang around with his friends all day turning water into wine and getting into trouble with the authorities?

[Superman]

Originally posted by widebody911
So the same god that hates liberals, homosexuals and Californians actually loves babies and tribal bushmen; what about the babies of liberal bushmen? Do they ro-sham-bo to get into heaven? What about gay bushmen?

Nope. God does not hate anyone. A careful read of the second to last paragraph of my long post above summarizes my beliefs regarding God's relationship to everyone, including serial killers. But some of these people will deliberately choose to turn their backs on Him. It is not He who dooms people. It is we. His gift to us, besides corporeal life, is this choice.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Superman
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've known a good number of atheists, who I consider very very different from agnostics, and I think it is fascinating that they think they are open-minded while they argue that the existence of God is a closed question.

Atheists are not closed-minded to the existence of god - it's just that they typically employ a more critical analysis of the evidence that he exists than the average theist.

There is fascination on both sides of the fence, I assure you.

Mike