I couldn't have made up a better example for my argument. The only tact is to try to prove that someone else has failed. This is quite similar to what the liberals posted last election...where they lost even worse than before.

And it needs to be something other than 'somewhere else'.


I think a large reason the Democratic ticket got as many votes as it did in the presidential election was because of the 'Anybody but Bush' sentiment.

Seems to me tho, it relates a lot more to emotion than logic. Morals are generally more emotional than logical, and war has become a big moral thing, so anyone who opposes war, whatever the reason, is likely to oppose whoever supports war.

What I'm saying is, many people didn't vote Kerry because they liked him, or the Democratic party... they voted Kerry because he's not Bush.


Y'all are gonna have to come up with something better than that next time, because you're right, Bush will be gone. No more third terms!

Actually, I think if Kerry wasn't running, Bush would be so outta there. Kerry was pretty controversial.

And you're completely offbase about the "emotional" here. There aren't many anti-war people out there anymore. You guys are mistaken in your belief those who oppose the Iraq invasion are anti-war. There's no emotion there...just a distain for STUPID decisions.

Yes, I have often heard that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results was "insanity." If that is the case....the democratic party is clearly insane.

Nah, I think you're pretty off base too. Maybe you're right about people not neccessarily being 'anti-war', but being 'anti-Iraq-as-long-as-Bush-can-be-blamed-if-it-all-goes-wrong' has become a state of mind for many. Whining and *****ing ARE pretty damn emotional, IMHO.

I've seen many MANY people who don't like Bush, and the way things go, resort to some very very stupid stuff. I've seen so many rude and low class things done by them, it's appalling. I've seen pro-Bush counterprotesters spit on and physically ASSAULTED by anti-Bush demonstrators. Tolerance, shyeah right.

It might not have started out emotional, but it is very much emotional at this point.

Take that woman who's camped out in a ditch outside of Bush's ranch. The left is totally trying to cash in on her, using the emotional appeal of her son's sacrifice. Frankly I think it's sick.


Anyway, I think regardless of whether our next president is a republican or democrat, what has started needs to be seen through to the end, a successful end. And I'm afraid democrats will be trying to produce, if not be content with, a very negative outcome. That way they can just 'blame Bush'.

I say get over it. This is the world you live in. Deal with it and take it from here forward.

you gotta love these idiots who think that bush and the republican party represent the honest hard working plain spoken american (this noble american is a false archetype. The myth of the virtuous common man was written about in thw 1920's...)

'Oh look -he's clearing brush on his ranch! A man's man, I gotta vote for him lest the bible be banned and abortions become mandatory along with Spanish!'

People consistently voting against their community's and their own best interests on the grounds of supposed moral issues. What a joke.

I know a few gay guys. One of em even bought me a beer once. Thank GOD I did not turn gay -close call!!

I think, personally, The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. I hope someday my children will be taught this Truth in public schools.

Ok Fint, then what is your winning approach then? It seems to me that when arguing a case that its important to chew into your opponents posistion and give reasons why they are wrong and you are right. Ever watch Law&Order?

Do you propose we go the Rove route and scare people into voting for the Dems? Remember when the Bush team spread inuendo about McCains illegitamate black baby in 2000? Hell, the red-staters believe we've caught Osama, brought peace and prosperity to the mid-east, and stopped the spread of the gay "lifestyle" by outlawing marriage. You're absolutely right, logical reasoning and decency are not going to reach these people. Bring on the smears, fake-news reports, and rumors of surrendering to France!

Too much wacky stuff here to comment ona ll of it so I will do the highlights.


1. Bush is the was the weakes candidate from any party since Herbert Hoover....and the Dems couldn't beat him. That does not say much for Kerry's abilities.

2. On the general Anti-War sentiment

As they say on Iron Chef..."if my memory serves me" the war in Iraq was the number 3 issue in most polls prior to the election...not number one...not number 2. Number one of course, was the economy.

3. As far as whether Bush represents the "common man" or not, the proof is in the polls. Bush got a higher percentage of votes from every minority group than he did in 2000. That would seem to indicate a broadening spectrum of appeal.

Now that is SUPPOSED to be where the Dem's appeal is..yet clearly it is not. Shaun explains it well:

Nobody likes to be condescended to. I disagree that Blue Collar types are easily lead. People are generally more intelligent than they are given credit for. However, it is this type of patrician attitude which is screwing the Democratic party. Funny how this USE TO BE the Republican stereotype.


In summary, the Dems need a platform. The most effective platform is ECONOMICS AND WEALTH. (Remember the war was not the number 1 issue in 2004) However, the usual Dem schtick of public assitance is worn out....even I realize that. They need to get on the ball and start harping on the economics/reducing the deficit and combatting debt and maximizing human capital.

But that is just not going to happen. Just like Gingrich was so obsessed with bringing down Bill, the current Dem leadership (if you can call it that) is just too obsessed with hating Bush, at the expense of everything else.

Wow.

The message, as it gets through out here, from the Democratic party is this:

"I live on the coast. I've never visited your state, save for the airspace. I'm smarter, richer, and generally a better person than you. I despise your lifestyle, your believe in a so-called "god", and your immature belief that you should get to keep your money--let alone get some say in what it is spent on. You obviously aren't enlighted enough to understand why I am right, but I will help (force) you to see the light through some taxpayer-funded indoctrination programs. One day, you close-minded, intolerant idiots will see how right I am. In the mean-time, you will just have to trust that I know better, and that I have your best interests in mind (well, I know what your best interests are, you obviously don't). What? You want a say? Haven't I already explained how mentally-incapable you are? You get a say when you are open-minded enough to see that I'm right. Geesh! Some people are idiots..."

A Democratic candidate who campaigned on this would get my vote. A Democratic candidate who delivered on this would get my political contributions (I don't donate to first-time candidates unless I personally know them--it keeps my blood-pressure down).

I voted for Blagojevich for the governor of our fine state. It felt dirty at the time (thought not as dirty as voting for Ryan would have). Now I feel betrayed. He's managed to deliver on exactly 0 of his campaign promises, and has p'ed everyone (both parties) off in the process.

Only have time for this one post, but dude, let's not try to rewrite history too much. the last election was ALL ABOUT the war on terror, later to be renamed the struggle against violent extremism after it was admitted to not going so well. The economy was 3rd on the list. Go do a search on Fox News.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2004

And I may do a follow-up on my original post. Saying that people are smarter than you give them credit for is just pandering. Call a spade a spade. People are not super bright.

Just go back to high school and you'll see. I went a catholic HS in MN... everyone pretty bright on the whole.

Went to 10th grade in Victoria, TX. Greatest population of idiots I'd ever seen. I was by far the smartest kid in a class of 109, and guys, I'm not very smart.

11th and 12th was in Northampton, MA. 5-college area. Now there were some smart people take courses at Smith and Amherst. But there was a MAJORITY of just average, small-thinkers.

Don't give people more credit than they deserve. It's all about advertising and it works, especially when your message is lowest common denominator.

Democrats are just bad at playing that game, thank god. We need some integrity in this country.

That pretty much sums it up, although I would like to add that people from the midwest dress poorly as well. http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/nahnah.gif

Last thing. As proof that people are easily led, all you need to do is look at televangelism.

Coincidence that 99% of people who are part of "televangelist flocks" are also bush voters?

hmmmm.

nuff said here.

Isn't that, as well as declaring you're "smarter" than everyone else a bit too subjective / biased to be taken seriously? Really, how do you figure?

I mean, c'mon now that's like me saying I'm smarter than 99% of the Libs I know because I think so and I don't smoke pot all day and don't live in my parent's basement.

rjp

Sorry, Shaun but you are wrong. Just because somebody (could be you or me) says so in WIKIPEDIA, does not make it so.

Go here for the Iowa Primary info and page down to "Most Important Issue"

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/epolls/IA/

These are all democratic candidates, so the field is level and the voters are overwhelmingly democratic.

Lo and behold...#3 is the WAR IN IRAQ. Economy was #1.

As far as blue collar people being dumb: Is the Porsche Tech who works on your car dumb? Probably doesn't have a GED, but he's got YOUR MONEY....probably in cash.

Or the plumber or construction contractor or lanscaper? Dumb like a fox. THEY'VE GOT YOUR MONEY TOO.

It's attitudes like this that have doomed the Democratic party.

But let's turn it on end. The Democrats SAY they are the party of the working man....but by your admittance, the working man is an idiot. So what does that make the would be leader of the idiots?

Please, put the smirkiness away. The Democratic party doesn't needs it.

Uhhh, got my money? No:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/150037-project-73-911-r-rs-week-1-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/151147-project-73-911-r-rs-week-2-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/152355-project-73-911-r-rs-week-3-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/153579-project-73-911-r-rs-week-4-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/155770-project-73-911-r-rs-week-5-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/160261-project-73-911-r-rs-week-6-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/160465-project-73-911-r-rs-week-6-2-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/163312-project-73-911-r-rs-week-7-part-1-a.html#post1316571

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/163313-project-73-911-r-rs-week-7-part-2-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/164648-project-73-911-r-rs-week-8-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/168296-project-73-911-r-rs-week-9-10-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/170863-project-73-911-r-rs-week-11-12-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/171943-project-73-911-r-rs-week-13-a.html

this past weekend.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1124122953.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1124122984.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1124122999.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1124123022.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1124123048.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1124123066.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1124123089.jpg

and so on.

So...everything else is correct. Good.

Why did you post a link to Iowa primaries for democratic candidates?

What was your point? Were you trying to mislead? You sir, are no Karl Rove!

I'm talking presidential election. We are on the same page, right?