Project 73 911 R/RS -- Week 11-12

Shaun @ Tru6 · 07-04-2004, 05:26 PM

If I get my order from Pelican this week, the motor goes in next weekend!!!

Many, many thanks to Mark Hald for traveling across half the state to help me move the car to where the motor has been sitting. Mark, keep a keen eye on your mailbox this week!

With starting the new company, things have slowed down, but it's getting there. Last two weeks were about fuel, oil, electrical, etc.

The huge Mazda oil cooler could have fit in one of Rennspeeds RS "S" front bumpers, but only with a male/male AN 12 elbow on the top and new threads in that port. Given the high potential for off-road excursions at the track, I've made every effort to keep every major component and line within the car, the exception being the Mercedes MC. Therefore, not wanting to rethread that top hole, I had 12 males welded onto the cooler to accept standard fittings, and decided to mount it INBOARD just in front of the fuel cell.

Time will tell if this will work.

Brackets to hold the cooler in. I'd given anything to have a work bench and a vice!

Here it is mounted using original rubber mounts connected to the Al bars

Side view

Front view. The box was cut out when I had it mounted outside the car. I plan on opening it up a bit more, then crafting a tunnel from the front bumper and back through.

With the fuel cell in, I ran AN6 throughout the car as well as the 3.2 wiring harness. BAT supplied the AN6 to metric connections for the fuel filter and return lines.

I was going to put a Prototypo in the car, but decided it would look better in the 84, and so I went with a wheel I picked up off the board from Dave Cardone. It's a mystery wheel, no known manufacturer, but it does hold the first patent for an anatomically designed wheel. Because of this, I had to bodge together the whole thing. From left to right:
73 hub drilled out from original wheel
standard Momo spacer
custom mystery wheel spacer
Smart racing quick release
the mystery wheel

Wheel is on

Lastly, I trial fitted the plastic doors I got from Damon (Series 900).
First, cut out the return strap hole so you can even see how the door will fit. Damon has a template scrawled into the glass to take the guesswork out. I just used a cone bit and then pulled a little more material out using a sanding drum on the Dremel.

To see how it will fit, I hot glued bits of paint stirrers onto the sill so the door has something to sit on and will be spaced appropriately.

Then just lay the door in place

This may sound crazy, but the passenger door fit perfectly. the driver's needs some adjustment at the top where it it meets the fender. Once the GT-Racing hinges come in, I am figuring about a day to get these mounted. If anyone has any tricks and tips, please do post!

Rufblackbird · 07-04-2004, 06:15 PM

Man, it's so exciting just to see the progress pics!

makaio · 07-04-2004, 06:23 PM

Shaun, you're an inspiration to us all!

Doug E · 07-04-2004, 07:01 PM

Quite a project. Nice progress and keep up the good work

Just curious, but will you be putting some ducting behind the oil cooler to allow the air to exit the "trunk" space? Not sure how hot the air flow will be coming through the cooler but based on the pics it looks like right now any flow would be up against the fuel cell.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 07-05-2004, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doug E
Quite a project. Nice progress and keep up the good work

Just curious, but will you be putting some ducting behind the oil cooler to allow the air to exit the "trunk" space? Not sure how hot the air flow will be coming through the cooler but based on the pics it looks like right now any flow would be up against the fuel cell.

Doug, good point and I've thought about this. I think the air going through the cooler will get very hot. My first experiment will be to afix a thermometer in place to see what we are getting in terms of temps. Then talk with ATL to get their input if the temp seems high (subjective). If they recommend it, I'll either go with ducting up through the hood a la GT40 or go under the cell or go out the side battery box holes.

svandamme · svandamme's Garage

i guess the easiest and cleanest way ( historically correct )
would be to fabricate an air box behind the cooler
nice big hose to the battery box area
and a fan to suck air through the cooler ( traffic jams or post race cooloff )

car's gonna be kickass from the looks of what you've been doing so far !!

rattlsnak · rattlsnak's Garage

You suk more and more with each of these updates.

~this is coming from someone who hasnt had time to even look at my project in 3 months~

Chuck Moreland · 07-05-2004, 09:49 AM

Since it's a dedicated track car, I'd be thinking about venting that cooler out the hood. Though it looks like you have limited clearance between cooler and fuel cell, so it might be a squeeze

You might want to re-think that fuel line layout. Fuel lines just don't belong in the cabin, even with the braided stainless. You will find this won't play in many clubs (maybe all clubs).

Routing through the center tunnel is a much safer way to go.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 07-05-2004, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Moreland
Since it's a dedicated track car, I'd be thinking about venting that cooler out the hood. Though it looks like you have limited clearance between cooler and fuel cell, so it might be a squeeze

You might want to re-think that fuel line layout. Fuel lines just don't belong in the cabin, even with the braided stainless. You will find this won't play in many clubs (maybe all clubs).

Routing through the center tunnel is a much safer way to go.

Chuck, I did check on the routing of the fuel lines before running them and they are fine. In fact, I picked this up from several dedicated cars out here on the East Coast. I've seen hard lines running through the passenger seat space in a suspended format, fuel lines strapped to the right side cage running roof height, and many other designs; I liked this one best. I was going to run through the tunnel and still inside up the back through the fire wall, but I liked the idea (in a crash scenario) of having it out of the way of the shifter mechanism and all the sharp "bridge" reinforcement edges in the tunnel. Have you ever looked in there? It's ugly. I also like the idea of being able to visually inspect every inch of hose.

Lastly, a dedicated fire suppression system is in the works for the cockpit and having the lines open to the system versus closed just makes much more sense to me.

Chuck Moreland · 11:35 AM

One problem with braided stainless is you can't visually inspect the condition of the line. The wear will be underneath the stainless braid.

I can tell you the POC requires all fuel lines to be seperated from the driver behind a "firewall". Though it has some holes in it, the center tunnel is deemed acceptable for this purpose. I think PCA is the same though I haven't checked the GCR.

Engine fires and fuel fires outside the car are distressing, but the thought of a fuel in the cabin scares the sheet out of me. Even with my fire suppression system and nomex suit I want no part of it. Why risk it.

geof33 · 07-05-2004, 01:25 PM

Not to rain on your parade, but Chuck is right. PCA doesn't allow fuel lines to run INSIDE the car with no "firewall" RMVR is the same as far as I know. I've been looking into fuel line placement myself for my cell, and will be running basically the stock line configuration with an on board (in the cell) fuel pump. I haven't checked yet on the actual system for the pump, but the lines will run as stock (basically). Things may change as the project progresses in terms of pump/regulator but routing stays as it is.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 07-12-2004, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geof33
Not to rain on your parade, but Chuck is right. PCA doesn't allow fuel lines to run INSIDE the car with no "firewall" RMVR is the same as far as I know. I've been looking into fuel line placement myself for my cell, and will be running basically the stock line configuration with an on board (in the cell) fuel pump. I haven't checked yet on the actual system for the pump, but the lines will run as stock (basically). Things may change as the project progresses in terms of pump/regulator but routing stays as it is.

Hey Guys,

I emailed Lance Weeks, Technical and Rules Official for PCA NA. Here is what he said:

"Shaun,

There is no rule governing where your fuel lines must run, but from a safety
standpoint I would consider running them somewhere else, not in the drivers
cabin. If you have a fuel leak and it happens behind you may not know until
its to late to react.

Be safe and have fun.

Regards,
Lance"

Reasons I like the driver's cabin:
1. Absolutely least chance of a leak, either by debri hitting a line or OTE or any other chance occurance. Again, I just don't like lines running under the car.
2. If there is a leak, least chance of it running into something that will spark
3. If there is a leak, it will be noticeable at the earliest point in time: visual, smell
4. Total inspection by pulling up holders and looking at lines can be done on a by occasion basis: quickly, easily, thoroughly
5. Fire suppression system can be aimed at all areas of the hose

I'm not saying I am leaving the lines running through the car as is. This bears more thought. I really appreciate the input and dialog.

RPMClassic · 07-12-2004, 03:44 PM

Shaun -

From your previous post....."lines running at roof height above pass side of car...."

...is this true?. I would think that any lines this height would be related to the interior "oil tank vent line" for those cars that have a front trunk mounted oil tank.

Your heart is in the right place - wanting a clean safe system that can easily be inspected. Would hate to see you go to all that work and have the car not pass tech. Keep us posted. You have now been nominated the " fuel expert".

Good luck with everything and post what your findings are.

Regards -
Jim

Shaun @ Tru6 · 07-13-2004, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RPMClassic
Shaun -

From your previous post....."lines running at roof height above pass side of car...."

...is this true?. I would think that any lines this height would be related to the interior "oil tank vent line" for those cars that have a front trunk mounted oil tank.

Jim

Hey Jim,

I was at Lime Rock about 2 months ago and there was a heavily built-up 964. It had rib-reinforced, clear tubing running up the right side and strapped to the cage, going through the firewall. Car was running and you could see gas streaming through it! I don't know what else it could be. Oil lines were hard in the cabin and suspended off the floor with some beautiful mounts.

jpachard · 07-13-2004, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
Hey Jim,

I was at Lime Rock about 2 months ago and there was a heavily built-up 964. It had rib-reinforced, clear tubing running up the right side and strapped to the cage, going through the firewall. Car was running and you could see gas streaming through it! I don't know what else it could be. Oil lines were hard in the cabin and suspended off the floor with some beautiful mounts.

Are you sure it was gas?? I believe that car has a H2O cooled engine in it. No one in there right mind would put gas in any clear tube since most of those tubes are not rated for fuel.

Cheers, James

304065 · 07-13-2004, 04:53 AM

Quote:

It had rib-reinforced, clear tubing running up the right side and strapped to the cage, going through the firewall. Car was running and you could see gas streaming through it!

I too, have seen some crazy stuff at the track. Lots of jokers have those glass see-through fuel filters, too. These same guys probably check for gas leaks with a lighter. Let's hope that was water for his cool suit.

First, let me compliment you on the beautiful job so far. I have the same ATL cell with -6AN and it works great and I have tremendous confidence in the performance and safety of the system.

Since you have the whole interior stripped out of the tunnel it would be so easy to route the lines through there. On my '71 is actually a "sub-tunnel" within the tunnel where the original steel hard lines ran. It's in this tunnel that I ran the -6AN in my own car. The braided stainless tends to abrade anything it's in contact with, so I put some fiberglass firebraid, you know that orange rubbery stuff, around the hose every few inches to isolate it from the tunnel.

I agree with you that inspection is a good thing. I notice you didn't use a '6AN bulkhead fitting where you went through the engine firewall. So long as you can avoid the firewall cutting through the hose (I used a length of PVC tubing) that's a great solution- somebody once told me that the vast majority of plumbing failures happen at the connections, not in the middle of the hose. By eliminating to the fullest extent possible connections you have minimized the likelihood of a leak, bravo.

Anyway, looks great and continued good luck on your project.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 07-13-2004, 05:10 AM

James,

I didn't see whether it was running a 996 motor or not. The lines were only about 3/4 inch, but orange antifreeze could be an explanation. it did have those trick suspended oil lines, would a water-cooled car also have the oil cooler?

John,

Thanks for the kind words. It was your car that made me go for the ATL with in-tank fuel pump and surge tank. BTW, do you have any pics for how you wired up the fuel pump? I am creating a dual kill switch system this weekend. I need to wire: cowl kill switch, fuel pump, Motronic DME, internal kill switch, starter button and starter motor.

I may go with your subtunnel suggestion, but still keep the backs of the lines in the car.

I have rubber grommets for the firewall throughpass. They hold the hose very snuggly. Do you think I should go with a bulkhead fitting?

Also, what fitting did you use for the IN to the fuel filter? BAT sent me a female AN6. I've got a conversion connector, but am not happy with it.