The metric system vs. the US

[Christien]

Originally posted by imcarthur

Our children are metric. When we mention miles or Fahrenheit now, they look at us blankly & start talking about dinosaurs.

Ian

LOL!

While I'm not Ian's kid, I'm a generation (maybe 1/2 a generation) younger, and he's exactly right. Canada's kind of screwy that way (well, it's not the only way...)

When people talk weight here, it's almost always pounds. I have no idea what my weight is in kilos without converting, but if you told me it was 70 degrees out, I wouldn't know whether to get a jacket or shorts, honestly. Then again, if you told me pool water was 22, I wouldn't know if I should creep or dive in, but that's because i grew up with a fahrenheit thermometer in our pool, so I'm just weird... In everyday situations, Canadians measure distance in feet and kilometres - no *****. Something is 10 feet away, or a house is 20 feet tall, but Montreal is about 550 km from Toronto. Most people (my age at least) wouldn't intrinsically know how far 20 metres is, but they also wouldn't know how many miles it is from one place to another. Maybe that will change with another generation.

Metric does make more sense, and is more universal, strictly speaking, because it's based on the most common substance on the planet - water. One millilitre of water weighs one gram and occupies one cubic centimetre of space. It freezes at zero degrees and boils at 100 degrees, and it takes one calorie to raise that millilitre one degree. Everything from there is just based in multiples of 10s or 100s.

And while yes, a millimetre is small, trying to measure something that's twenty-nine thirty-seconds of an inch has always just seemed silly to me

[kach22i]

Originally posted by imcarthur
Canada went metric in the early 70s.

I've read that a dual system exist, and it costs your economy millions if not billions a year.

Any truth to this?

[EdT82SC]

I don't think the "average" american is up to switching to the metric system because they can't handle the English measurements now. A couple years ago I was in a market at the fish counter. I asked for a piece of Halibut that was 6-8 ounces, and the guy behind the counter told me he didn't know the metric system. His elictronic scale wighed out hundreds of pounds, and that's all he knew. So I told him half a pound, and he got me a nice piece. I never corrected him so he still probably thinks ounces are metric.

[wludavid]

I was plotting flight lines last week for a helicopter and we have to give the pilots Lat/Long degrees and decimal minutes (49* 45.34 minutes), flight path length in meters and altitude in kilofeet. It's bloody weird.

I don't really see any reason to switch. Sure, the conversions are easier in metric - so I use metric as much as possible for 'real' work, aka science and engineering, but I'm good enough with mental math to convert english measurements as well.

[Hugh R]

Being British, my Aston Martin's power output is measured in StoneFurlongs per fortnight.

[imcarthur]

Originally posted by kach22i
it costs your economy millions if not billions

Yes, it cost. I'm sure an accurate figure has never been calculated. The winners are:

1. The civil service
2. Packagers & printers - everything must be relabeled & instructions rewritten in both systems during a transition period.
3. Companies selling measuring devices.

Christian: You sound metrically schizophrenic. Just like the rest of us.

Ian

[LeRoux Strydom]

Americans will metricize inch-by-inch...............

Here in SA (an ex-colony of the British empire ) we went metric in 1961. My parents (both in their 70's) will still occasionally talk about inches & feet, and about buying a pound of butter. Most other younger people give blank stares.

The best way to convert, is to go all at once, not like the silly English who went about it bass-ackwards in typical English style. I guess they like being half-pregnant, just like they are half-EU but remain oh-so very british.

I believe that Sweden converted from driving on the left (like the UK) to driving on the right fairly recently, like in the 70's? Can you imagine the chaos if that were to happen today in say India, UK or Japan? Why we still have this foolishness is beyond me.

One of my kids recently did a school assignment on the metric system. She found information that a Mars probe crashed because someone programmed some control software in metric units, but the NASA operators forgot and provided imperial input data, sending it off-orbit to a fiery death .

Le Roux

[livi]

I could do with you people move over to the metric system. It´s a bugger of arithmetics every time I try to figure out how many miles, gallons, inches and so on you mention in your posts.

[Rob Channell]

Originally posted by wludavid
I was plotting flight lines last week for a helicopter and we have to give the pilots Lat/Long degrees and decimal minutes (49* 45.34 minutes), flight path length in meters and altitude in kilofeet. It's bloody weird.

There's more than just Lat/Long even after figuring in whether it's decimal degrees, degrees and decimal minutes, or degrees, minutes and decimal seconds.

We were looking at some data recently and some components were in Northing, Easting, and Altitude. Others were in North, West, and Up or North, East, Down components. Then you have to decide whether your altitude is referenced to sea level or one of the myriad of ellipsoids like WGS-84, WGS-72 etc. We had some of each.

[gaijindabe]

Metric is a load of crap. Glad to the see the Limeys still using miles, and the Canadiens have been sensible enough to keep feet and inches.

There is a reason old English money and one foot are base 12 - divisability. In half, by three and by four.

And who is so narrow minded they want a temperature scale based in water rather than the human experience? Zero is cold! 100 is hot! And 60-something is a nice spring day..

[wludavid]

Agree with both posts above. I work in UTM also, so we deal in Northing and Easting, and then have to figure out which convention we're using. It causes all kinds of problems I hadn't even begun to think about. Luckily our pilots have dealt with it longer than I have and were able to straighten me out.

And what's with Celcius? It's like someone with a decimal fetish just went to town without thinking about it. C is just as arbrirary as F, at least F conveys more information since the units are more precise. Use Kelvin if you don't want an arbitrary scale.

[Christien]

Originally posted by wludavid
C is just as arbrirary as F

No it's not - read my post above. But you're right that for true scientific measurements you need Kelvins.

[wludavid]

Originally posted by Christien
No it's not - read my post above. But you're right that for true scientific measurements you need Kelvins.

I stand by my statement. It's a subtle point, but I'll try to explain my reasoning. The unit size of celsius is well thought out and has much utility in the scientific measurements - 1 calorie to raise 1 mL of water 1 degree C (or 1 degree K). It fits in nicely. However, picking water as the 0 and 100 points is just abitrary as whatever Farhenheit used to pick his (commonality of water is not a good argument, IMO). And since the F scale is more precise and relays more information over the scale that most humans occupy on a climatic level, F is more useful when talking about weather. K is more useful when talking about science. C is the bastard child that is silly to use for either.

[Christien]

Ok, I see your point about picking water being arbitrary, but if you need to pick something to measure, water makes the most sense, as it exists everywhere in the world, so I guess we just disagree as to whether or not it's a good argument - I think it is. I don't know what F is based in, if anything. I'm not sure I follow your argument on it being more precise, unless you simply mean that the difference between a really cold winter and a really hot summer is maybe 60 degrees F whereas it would be only 40 C, so the measurements are smaller and therefore provides a more accurate measurement. I don't really buy this, as for all practical purposes, nobody that I know of has ever complained about a measurement of 22 degrees celsius as not being accurate enough Further, I don't think F is more useful when talking about weather as soon as you need to discuss anything with anyone outside the US - as far as I know there aren't any other countries in the world that use F - even in England they measure weather temps in celsius. And AFAIK, celsius/metric is the scientific standard the world over, including the US - it certainly is for weight, volume and distance, and I believe temps too. IIRC Kelvins are only used to discuss very cold temperatures. I believe it's because of the universality of metric and it's simple base-10 construct that it's become the accepted standard.

[LeRoux Strydom]

Originally posted by gaijindabe
Metric is a load of crap. Glad to the see the Limeys still using miles, and the Canadiens have been sensible enough to keep feet and inches.

There is a reason old English money and one foot are base 12 - divisability. In half, by three and by four.

And who is so narrow minded they want a temperature scale based in water rather than the human experience? Zero is cold! 100 is hot! And 60-something is a nice spring day..

That is so typically american! So 90% of the earth's population is wrong?

[Ollies930]

Why dont we really screw things up and bring back the Whitworth standard? Try finding a wrench for that! Hugh R probably has some familiarity with that seeing his list of automobiles. By the way, how do they give a measurement for torque on David Brown's finest?
But seriously, lets bury SAE in the dark ages where it belongs, the metric system is just another form of progress to make our lives simpler not more difficult as most Americans believe. And since we are on a car forum, why do hi performance suppliers of cylinder heads and pistons give their volumes in cc and engine displacement, bore, stroke in cubic inches?

Oliver

[gaijindabe]

Originally posted by LeRoux Strydom
That is so typically american! So 90% of the earth's population is wrong?

Yes!

And the lines for US visas prove it!

[Ed Bighi]

Originally posted by gaijindabe
Yes!

And the lines for US visas prove it!

I challenge you to find a substantial number of educted folks of middle class and above in those lines. Having grown up in both Brazil and here and seeing a very different picture, I have always found it strange how most Americans judge the world by the people they see at those lines.

[wludavid]

Originally posted by Christien
Further, I don't think F is more useful when talking about weather as soon as you need to discuss anything with anyone outside the US - as far as I know there aren't any other countries in the world that use F - even in England they measure weather temps in celsius. And AFAIK, celsius/metric is the scientific standard the world over, including the US - it certainly is for weight, volume and distance, and I believe temps too. IIRC Kelvins are only used to discuss very cold temperatures. I believe it's because of the universality of metric and it's simple base-10 construct that it's become the accepted standard.

OK, two more quick arguments:
1. The US sees temps as low as -20 degrees F in the Dakotas and Minnesota, and on up to 110 in Arizona. I don't think you'll find too many countries that have that broad of a range. We get along fine with F.

2. The reason why base-10 units are useful is because they are easily multiplied - just add a zero for an order of magnitude. The problem with the C scale is that while it's based on decimal, zero sits at an arbitrary point so that multiplication of celcius degrees is impossible. 100 C does not represent 10x as much much molecular movement as 10 C. You would never multiply C, so why bother basing it on a system whose chief usefulness is multiplication?

[Christien]

1. Fair enough. Like I said above (and I don't mean it sarcastically or to be antagnozing) nobody else cares about the accuracy, range, etc. You get along fine with F because you're used to it. We get along fine (well, at least the younger ones!) because we're used to C.

2. While I don't have the physics/chemistry knowledge to say for sure, I don't think F temps can be multiplied in the way you mentioned either (nor K for that matter).

My point about multiplication is the logic of the units:
1 kilometre = 1000 metres = 1,000,000 centimetres
1 tonne = 1000 kilogrammes = 1,000,000 milligrammes
I have no idea how many feet are in a mile, how many ounces in a pound, or pounds in a ton. let alone where those numbers derive from - it's completely arbitrary, is it not?