Flyboys: what's up with all the B737 crashes?

[LeRoux Strydom]

Two of the six recent aircraft crashes killing over 500 people since July were B737's of some type or another. Is there a pattern developing here, or are there just so many 737's in service that statistics are catching up on them?

Any inside track on these plane crashes? Should I avoid flying on 737's for a while?

Le Roux

[speeder]

Originally posted by LeRoux Strydom
Is there a pattern developing here, or are there just so many 737's in service that statistics are catching up on them?

I think that you hit the answer right there, but I'll defer to more expert people around here.

[singpilot]

Avoid low cost supplemental carriers flagged in a foreign country flying in bad weather.

If they happen to be in a 737, so be it. There are lots of them out there.

[Drago]

Originally posted by singpilot
Avoid low cost supplemental carriers flagged in a foreign country flying in bad weather.

Exactly.

My father-in-law was flying on one of these airlines once in the mid-70's (minus the bad weather). He mentioned to the flight attendent that he was a pilot (at the time). The captain came back and invited him up to the cockpit. Once there, he ask my father-in-law if he'd like to take the stick for awhile. He did. Flew the rest of the flight until final approach.

[artplumber]

Originally posted by Drago
Exactly.

My father-in-law was flying on one of these airlines once in the mid-70's (minus the bad weather). He mentioned to the flight attendent that he was a pilot (at the time). The captain came back and invited him up to the cockpit. Once there, he ask my father-in-law if he'd like to take the stick for awhile. He did. Flew the rest of the flight until final approach.

OMG! That would be funny except I am finally getting enough money to start traveling.... Where did this happen?

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

Could this be a situation where smaller carriers are not following maint. procedures to the letter?

Seems to me like the 737 should have a pretty good record being such a workhorse...

[Victor]

Yikes - I once flew between a couple of islands in Indonesia (don't remember the type of plane but it seated about 50 people or so).

We where sitting behind the door to the cockpit which kept flapping open. I swear the kid from "Indiana Jones: Raiders of the Lost Ark" was flying the thing. Baseball cap and all. You know, the one that kept yelling "DOCTOR JONES!!! DOCTOR JONES!!!!"

He didn't think me yelling that was funny and neither did the wife or other panic striken passengers. I sure as hell did.

[rotorhead]

I caught a Saudi Arabian Airlines Flight out of Riyadh on Sep 18 one week after the attacks in the USA. The pilot (at night) took off and leveled at 2000' and turned over the city. I nearly ***** myself, I had been flying military aircraft out of that area for a while and the standard departure was definately a straight ahead climb to 4000' and an opposite turn towards the gulf.

I came very very close to kicking in the cockpit door. I was yelling at the flight attendant and everyone was looking at me.

Turns out the the FO simply turned the wrong way and the captain completed a 270deg level turn by hand before overflying the field and departing. (Still screams poor airmanship)

It still gives me shivers for a number or reasons.

[304065]

Le Roux,

A quick check of the NTSB's accident database lists seven accidents or incidents for the B737 type since 2000.

A similar scan for the DC-9 type shows 31, with two fatals in the same period.

Examining just the fatals since that time shows an Embraer 170, BAe 32, Convair 580, DC9-51, Beech 1900D, A300, and then the data are all skewed, you have 2 767 and 2 757, but we know what that's about, then a DeHavilland dash-8, another A300, a DC-8 and an MD-83.

That looks sorta like a market share analysis to me.

This is FAR from a scientific analysis and doesn't take into account real statistical factors like seat-miles flown or size of the fleet.

Anyway, if there were genuine safety issues with the 737 type you'd see and AD, like the one on the vertical stabilizer a few years ago.

The two South African accidents I found were both CFIT controlled flight into terrain scenarios. In this situation, an a/c like a 737, many of which are equipped with GPWS ground proximity warning system actually have a better chance of avoiding CFIT.

[Joeaksa]

I used to fly for Boeing and the quality of the flight crews coming in to pick up planes varied A LOT! Fly with a flag carrier of a large country. If you go outside the country fly with Cathay, Lufthansa, Brit Airways, Virgin or Lauda Air or the like.

Anything smaller is a crap shoot and do you want to gamble with your life? If you are riding with a screwy taxi driver you can stop, get out and walk. Differnet story with flying.

Joe A

[Drago]

Originally posted by artplumber
Where did this happen?

Mexico, over the gulf.

[LeRoux Strydom]

Originally posted by john_cramer
A quick check of the NTSB's accident database .........

John, do you have a link for this database?

I did not remotely do any research on this, my eye was merely caught by a local newspaper report that mentioned 2 B737's in the last 7 accidents since July. I agree that reality will most likely show up a market share analysis of type and operator.

Le Roux

[304065]

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp

Don't freak yourself out.

[Moses]

Flew to Chichen Itza in a small commercial prop plane. Hot day. We left at 10 AM, and the pilot and co-pilot were sucking down beers after take off.

[Joeaksa]

Moses,

In Europe it used to be legal to have one drink before flying. I got my German license about 15 years ago and we all went out to lunch after the checkride to celebrate. Two of the German pilots went with us and were having a beer with chow and their beeper went off. They then went off and flew a medivac mission!

Different strokes for different folks. Personally I will have my drink AFTER I land!

That said, had a good friend who flew airline in Berlin. He kept a beer in his Jepps map bag. When he caged the engines he popped the top on the brew and had a sip. When the dispatcher came out and asked if he could work overtime, Tom just smiled and showed him the beer! Worked wonders...

Joe A

[304065]

I never knew that about German regs.

Trust me: there are many activities in life which the consumption of a tall HB Munchener Pilsen does not inhibit, makes tolerable, or even enhances. Such as, for example, sitting on a deck chair, painting the bedroom, or watching a ball game.

But flying ain't one of those activities. I need every last synapse I've got for the simultaneous physical and mental coordination that comes with flying. And double that for IFR operations. To say nothing of the paranoia that would result from always questioning whether you forgot anything due to the chemical state. To an even greater degree than operating a car, flying is incredibly intolerant "of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect" as an old poster I have says-- and the difference is, one might get away with operating a vehicle over the legal limit, and escape the reach of both good sense and the law, but operating an airplane while intoxicated, well, it's hard to escape the iron laws of physics, which usually sentence the pilot to pushing up daisies.

Except, of course, in Ag flying. (Just kidding, you crop dusters!)

[Joeaksa]

Am sure that most of you heard of the Tunis Air turboprop that crashed off the coast of Sicily recently? The cause just came out and is a good reason why we try not to fly on non-flag carriers while overseas.

Seems that the mechanics installed the wrong fuel gauge in the plane and it showed that it had enough fuel to make the flight when it was actually empty.

JoeA

From Aviation International news:

ATR 72 Crash Traced To an Incorrect Fuel Gauge

Accident investigators have determined that Tunisian mechanics replaced a faulty fuel gauge in the ATR 72 that crashed off the northeast coast of Sicily on August 6 with the wrong model, a mistake that apparently led the doomed airplane’s pilots to upload less fuel than they needed to complete their trip from Bari, Italy, to Djerba, Tunisia.

As a result, the airplane ran out of fuel one hour into the flight, forcing the pilots to ditch into the Tyrrhenian Sea, where 16 of the 39 occupants perished.

According to a report issued by Italy’s national agency for air transport safety (ANSV), the day before the crash the mechanics installed a fuel gauge designed for the 48-seat ATR 42 in the larger ATR 72, which carries more fuel. When the airplane lost power, the gauge still read 1,984 pounds of fuel in each wing tank.

Based on the ANSV report, Italy’s civil aviation authority, ENAC, has banned Tunisair regional subsidiary Tuninter from operating in Italy

[Superman]

Right now, the experienced mechanics for Northwest Airlines are locked out of their jobs and walking picket lines in front of the maintenance hangar on my project. The workers brought in to replace them do not have the same level of training. And when the dust clears from this particular labor dispute, I expect that mechanic wages will be between 15% and 20% below their former levels for those (Northwest) jobs. The airlines have overall been winning their fights with Labor, lowering wages and benefits. The NW pilots recently took a 15% pay cut.

So, from the perspective of folks who don't notice that it is people who do the job of maintenance, operation and safety, this is a good deal. It helps keep the price of a ticket down. From another perspective, one might say that the lowering of airline employee wages across the board, in double-digit chunks every couple of years, could have an impact on the safety, or lack thereof, of airline travel generally.

The Boeing 737 is arguably the most successful airplane in aviation history, and has an excellent safety record. But I'm not sure any of them have ever failed to operate perfectly when maintenance and operation procedures were followed.

[Moses]

In public safety jobs, I'd like to see very high standards and high pay. Make those jobs tough to get and tough to keep. I'll gladly pay a few bucks more when I fly.

[Moses]

Originally posted by john_cramer
...but here's the rub: legacy carriers operate in Chapter 11 like it was a permanent hammock, not a safety net.

So chapter 11 is being used to thwart enonomic Darwinism? Why would this be allowed to continue? Who benefits?

I have no issue at all with non-union labor. I am a bit troubled that air travel is bought and sold like a commodity, as you mentioned. How many of our carriers are now serviced in China? At some point a purely price-driven deregulated industry may become less safe.