The Judge on Fox

[Mule]

This afternoon on Fox, the right wing , protect Bush at all cost network, Judge Nepolitano said according to constitutionl law, Bush should have overrode the governor if: 1. Order was breaking down into chaos or 2. the conditions prevented the enforcement of the law. Now I'm sure gus is far more of an expert on constitutional law then Judge Nepolitano, but according to the Judge, all you guys wailing about constitutional this or that are full of cr*p.

[island911]

Mule, that's the one thing (in all of this) that I've been critical of Bush over. But even now, with all kinds of law enforcement and troops in the area, people are still refusing to leave. The Govenor and Mayor Still think they should be running things.

How hard should the federal level work to kick people out of their houses? (then & now) . . .people damn set on staying.

[Mulhollanddose]

[Mule]

Island I agree but if the feds can't make 'em leave how are the locals supposed to? Don't get me wrong. I'm far from a Techweenieesque left winger but Bush screwed up massively by not sending in troops by Wednesday at the latest to put down the uprising. The incompitence of his FEMA apointee is bad too but the latter was his big screw up.

[kach22i]

The Plan: Prayer will save us.

[gaijindabe]

Put down the uprising? Common thugs and criminals taking advantage of a situation is not an uprising. That a good percentage of the NO police force is off looting or AWOL is not Bush's fault.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by gaijindabe
Put down the uprising? Common thugs and criminals taking advantage of a situation is not an uprising. That a good percentage of the NO police force is off looting or AWOL is not Bush's fault.

Didn't we heard this after the fall of Baghdad?

[techweenie]

Originally posted by Mule
I'm far from a Techweenieesque left winger ....

:-)

[928ram]

From what I understand of the law (correct me if I'm wrong), an active attempt to overthrow the govt. would be required to send the troops in in the law enforcement capacity. All active duty military must only assist in rescue/recovery efforts. The exception (again, correct if wrong), is the US Coast Guard, who can paticipate in law enforcement, but are kinda busy right now.

This law dates back to post-civil war; should it be updated? Maybe, but to just throw it out the window at this point sends us down a slippery slope.

As of yesterday Gen. Honore(sp) has refused to pull US citizens from their homes, they will do everything they can to convince people to leave and will evac anyone who will go, but will leave the handcuff and drag them out to the NOPD. I can see his stand, the NG serves the people of NO, and at what point do you forcible save people from themselves?

Also as of yesterday, while the Mayor ordered the complete evac of the city, the Gov. balked and said that only she had that authority and would wait until she personally saw the results of the water tests to make sure they were bad enough. Add this to her actions/ inactions/ statements... well I'm not one to subscribe to conspiracy theories...but it's looking like someone does hate black and poor people, and it ain't Bush or Nagin.

As for federal response; the federal govt has first reponders in the US Coast Guard (you know, DHS) and they responded mightily. With some of their bases destroy or flooded or heavily damaged and personell missing, the CG flew into NO within hours of the storm passing and before it was even safe to do so, and while that was going on they managed to restore the floow of that precious oil at the terminals off NO, open the ports along the Gulf Coast, restore their own damaged communications, and fly humanitaian supplies to the affected area. As of 2 mornings ago, the CG had save 33,000 souls; 2/3 of which were the most difficult direct rescues ( you know ones and twos from rooftops). This number is somewhat staggering in itself, yet moreso when you consider that it's higher than their entire enrollment. Is it so much to ask that state and locals pull the heads and react in kind?

[Mulhollanddose]

Man Mule, I am still not understanding how Bush or the Administration in any way has any responsibility in this...It was a hurricaine, it was unprepared for, New Orleans/Louisiana bungled badly and resources were focused ASAP by the Administration (who BTW have not once resorted to petty politics or finger-pointing)...It seems like Bush is smelling like a rose to me.

[Mule]

Did you read the first post? Now maybe Judge Nepolitano is a buffon or a liberal plant. But he said what I posted. Was order breaking down? Were the local police able to enforce the law? Responsability for the levees is local and federal. Funding for improvements had been repeatedly turned down and maintenace cut by 71.2 mil under W. They had people in place to hand out sandwiches & water but they were getting shot at. How can you possibly say that this does not fit both of the obove criteria? If local officials are unable to gain control & folks are dieing by the thousands, exactly what do you expect of the fed govt? Is any of this hard to understand? As far as petty politics, does Bush allowing an obviously incompitent governor to allow her people to die because she campaigned for Kerry qualify.

[island911]

Originally posted by Mule
. .but if the feds can't make 'em leave how are the locals supposed to? . .

From what I can gather N.O. hates authority. The further out the authority, the more they love to hate (and defy) it.

As I see it, the most local authority had the best chance of convincing people to leave , before the storm.

Tell me, do you honestly believe that armed US troops would have been the best solution to get people to leave? (I think they would have fought it even more. ie like the shooting at Army/NG helicopters)


Loccals had the advantagous position of "we know this town. we know storms. THIS ONE is a FIVE. Let's Roll! "

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by Mule
Was order breaking down? Were the local police able to enforce the law?

Apparently the local law enforcement and LOCAL (non Fed)disaster relief organizations felt they had total control, as this is the message they sent to Red Cross and the Fed...

-- Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

-- The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

Red Cross

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by Mule
Funding for improvements had been repeatedly turned down and maintenace cut by 71.2 mil under W.

Actually Bush allocated 2.7 billion (according to the NYTimes -- via "trueblueliberal.com")...

Anyone who cares about the health of America's rivers and wetlands should pay attention to a bill now before the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. The bill would shovel $17 billion at the Army Corps of Engineers for flood control and other water-related projects - this at a time when President George W. Bush is asking for major cuts in Medicaid and other important domestic programs. Among these projects is a $2.7 billion boondoggle on the Mississippi River that has twice flunked inspection by the National Academy of Sciences. TrueBlueLiberal


Well, according to CNS, Times Picayune and the Orleans Levee Board...

In December of 1995, the Orleans Levee Board, the local government entity that oversees the levees and floodgates designed to protect New Orleans and the surrounding areas from rising waters, bragged in a supplement to the Times-Picayune newspaper about federal money received to protect the region from hurricanes.

"In the past four years, the Orleans Levee Board has built up its arsenal. The additional defenses are so critical that Levee Commissioners marched into Congress and brought back almost $60 million to help pay for protection," the pamphlet declared. "The most ambitious flood-fighting plan in generations was drafted. An unprecedented $140 million building campaign launched 41 projects."

and...

By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget, but less than one tenth of one percent of that -- $1.98 million -- was dedicated to levee improvements in the New Orleans area. State appropriators were able to find $22 million that year to renovate a new home for the Louisiana Supreme Court and $35 million for one phase of an expansion to the New Orleans convention center.
CNS News

So, you have been misinformed Mule...You have been duped and bought hook-line-and-sinker a false bill of goods.

[Mule]

One of us has. Roosevelt spent money on the levees in the 30's too. Put on your thinking cap. Was Bush president in 94. 95 or 96? As for the construction budget, they probably had highway money that they didn't spend on levees either. Who's been duped?

Island, it matters not what they hate. When thugs are robbing citizens & shooting at aid workers somebody has to help. Can we agree on that?

[Mulhollanddose]

By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget, but less than one tenth of one percent of that -- $1.98 million -- was dedicated to levee improvements in the New Orleans area.

I thought this required repetition as it illuminates the type of negligence displayed by...NO NOT BUSH...New Orleans and LA.

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by Mule
One of us has. Roosevelt spent money on the levees in the 30's too. Put on your thinking cap. Was Bush president in 94. 95 or 96? As for the construction budget, they probably had highway money that they didn't spend on levees either. Who's been duped?

Island, it matters not what they hate. When thugs are robbing citizens & shooting at aid workers somebody has to help. Can we agree on that?

You Mule, read the articles...Between funding in 1995, 1998 and Bush's 2.7 billion allocation (which obviously differs from what you put forth), they should have been easily able to withstand a cat-5...They dropped the ball, they misallocated more than adequate funding, and Bush is now wiping their liberal rears.

You should be applauding Bush, not jumping on the "it's Bush's fault" parade; as it is intentionally wrong and intended to mislead by diverting the real seat of blame.

[Mule]

I'm sorry did you say levee budget or construction budget?

[techweenie]

Looks like a lot of sch!t is being thrown at the fan. That's the usual tactic when the facts aren't favoring the right.

So now, the Army Corps of Engineers is "liberal?" When did that happen? Where is it stated the alleged Federal $2.7 billion was for Ponchatrain levee enhancement? Since when is a 'Senate committee' recommendation Dubya's personal mission to save NO? Isn't he the one who said 'no one could have foreseen this?'

[island911]

Originally posted by Mule
. . .
Island, it matters not what they hate. When thugs are robbing citizens & shooting at aid workers somebody has to help. Can we agree on that?

hmmm...

It seems that you are effectively saying that police should always be at the scene of a crime, while the crime is happening.

From what I've see of this world, that is hardly realistic. Rapes, murders, all kinds of bad sheit goes down all around the world every day. -Govt forces allways show-up after the event.

As I've said before; this country is founded on personal responsibility first. --that said; there is one hell of a lot of support now in that region.

The best argument against Bush is; He should have broken laws and risked his Presidency, and set a precedence of totalitarian action to save people (at gun point) who don't believe him.

.. . or perhap, Bush failed to be creative. He could have offered free money to those living in the flood-plane . . ."$3k free/each -- pick up in Dallas TX. Must show to collect . . --this weekend only.

It's truely sad that so many (still) scoff at Mother Nature. . . .looking to Daddy Warbux for shelter/relief -- just fix-it for me NOW!