Replica guitars make the front office at Gibson and Fender cry

[Shuie]

During the late '50s and early '60s the Gibson Guitar factory turned out some never before seen guitars in hopes of saving what was a struggling company. In 1958, they made less than 150 experimental and futuristic looking guitars in Korina (African Limba, Mahogany). 91 of these Korina guitars were made in a configuration that will forever be known as the Flying V and were sold between '58-'59. In addition to the Korina flying Vs, there were 23 Korina Explorers, and roughly 1800 sunburst Les Paul's made during this time.

While the guitars were unpopular at the time, today they are some of the most desirable, collectible, and financially unattainable guitars that have ever been built.

Thankfully, people like me can have an accurate replica of a '58 Gibson Flying V if we want one today. And I'm not talking about the overpriced '83 Gibson reissues of these guitars either.

Japanese guitar companies have a long history of making replica versions of American guitars that are indisputably better the current American versions at a fraction of the price and arguably as good as the originals.

From 1977 through the mid '80s Tokai sold enough dead nuts accurate and blatant copies of late '50s-'60s Gibson and Fender guitars to be sued by both companies. I posted some pictures of my Tokai copy of a '59 flametop Les Paul a few weeks ago. That guitar is easily as nice or nicer than any historic Gibson reissue that Ive ever owned or played.

Here's my latest acquisition. Its another Tokai. This time its a copy of the '58-'59 Gibson Flying V that someone went through the trouble faking the serial number to look like a real '59 Gibson. Same story here. Cost was about $650 and I wouldn't trade it for any $10k Gibson historic reissue that Ive ever played or seen. This thing is incredible.

[Shuie]

[Shuie]

[Joeaksa]

When are they going to copy the 911 then???

Looks nice!

JoeA

[jim72911t]

Neat stuff. I would buy "copies" of Gibson and Fender stuff back in the late '80's simply because I couldn't afford the real stuff. Most played pretty well; a few played like crap. I've still got an SG copy (forgot the make) and an Ibanez Les Paul "lawsuit" model. Sold a dead nuts SG bass copy years ago and have regretted it ever since.

I'm surprised at the prices some of these are fetching today. Looks like I'm in the same boat as I was 15 or so years ago; except now it's getting to the point where I can't even afford the copies anymore!

[Shuie]

I like the really good copies. the 'real stuff' is not whats being sold at the neighborhood Guitar Center or from the Musicians Friend catalog these days. Do you know that Gibson wont even sell guitars through Gruhn in Nashville anymore? The nicest Gibson Ive ever owned was a Gibson Custom Shop Historic '58 flametop reissue Les Paul that I was scared to play or handle becuase I might hurt the resale. Nice playing lightweight and resonant guitar, but honestly not any better than my '84 Tokai Love Rock that I can, do, and will play for a long time.

The Tokai's are definitely getting expensive. I always wanted a Tokai Love Rock while I was searching for the right Les Paul. The Japanese Tokais are not the easiest thing to find in the US. The Korean models are coming in from Canada, but I dont want to mess with those. I never managed to find a Japanese Tokai when I was really buying and swapping a lot of guitars, but that was before the internet

I owned an Ibanez Rocket Roll ('58 Flying V copy, lawsuit model) about 8-9 yrs ago and I paid about the same as they are selling for now. Still a lot money considering what they sold for. The Ibanez was a neat guitar. Im looking for another one of those.

[stuartj]

This is my Orville by Gibson, circa late 80's. JPN made Gibson, all Gibson innards, Japan quality. 1958 Les Paul Standard spec. Best LP ive ever had. A keeper.

[WolfeMacleod]

Originally posted by jim72911t
[B]Neat stuff. I would buy "copies" of Gibson and Fender stuff back in the late '80's simply because I couldn't afford the real stuff.

Even if I could afford a high end Gibson, I'd never give Gibson a single penny of my money. Or Fender, for that matter.
They make fine guitars, sure, but they're both doing thier damnest to shut the entire guitar industry down.
Gibson sues PRS for making singlecut "LP copies". Gibson then turned around and sued Fender because they wanted to make "strat" and "tele" style guitar under the Valley Arts name, and Fender wanted to protect them. E'suze me??
Gibson pulled dealer website pictures of individual guitars. No more hunting for that perfectly flamed LP from Wildwood or Guitar Galleria.
Gibson lost about a large percentage of it's dealers due to new "remain a dealer" demands.
Fender shut down muplitple small builders.
Dimarzio trademarked the double-cream humbucker in the 1970's. Now they're going for another colour. This affects me personally.
Trying to trademark designs that have been unprotected by trademark for 50+ years. Trademarking after the fact.

PRS recently (temporarily) won the Gibson lawsuit and can immediately resume singlecut production and shipping.

Please, support your local and small builders. Our lives depend on guitar players.
For unmatched LP and strat style guitars, I suggest checking our places like...
http://www.usacustomguitars.com
http://www.heatleyguitars.com
http://www.shamray.net

there are loads of them people never even heard of.

[Shuie]

Stuart, thats a great looking LP. That is my absolute favorite finish! Beautiful guitar.

Wolfe, I dont disagree at all. I made up my mind that I would never buy another new Gibson after hearing what they did to Gruhn in Nashville. Its absurd. I had money in hand to buy a new '59 reissue and I couldnt even get one of their pet stores to send me pics of the actual guitars they had for sale.

I dont know the details of the PRS lawsuit, but I know that there has been some talk of it possibly allowing more clone guitars into the US.

I remember hearing that Gibson threatened to sue Tom Holmes a few years ago if he didnt stay underground with his pickups. Later on, they turned around and tried to buy components from him to make their ****ty pickups seem more like the original PAFs. Ive heard recently this is the reason he only deals with the Japanese now. Its a damn shame.

[WolfeMacleod]

Originally posted by Shuie

I remember hearing that Gibson threatened to sue Tom Holmes.... Its a damn shame.

I've spoken to Tom on several occasions, being that we're in the same biz. He's never told me of this. Guess I'll have to call and ask!
I know Tom's doing huge business in Japan, with a Japanese licensed Holmes brand being made by a friend of my Asian distributor. Good stuff! I also know he wants to get out of pickups to concentrate on guitars, which is why he charges so much for them. He figured people would stop buying if they coulnd't afford. He was wrong.

The fact that PRS has temporarily won will have a nice effect on the Fender lawsuits as well. It will make it more difficult for Fender to shut down the smaller builders.
Now if only something could be done about that pesky Dimarzio trademark. Any trademark attorneys here?

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Shuie
Stuart, thats a great looking LP. That is my absolute favorite finish! Beautiful guitar.

Why, thank you. It looks like a tobacco sunburst in that shot, but its not. Its actually georgous honey and violin tones. Pickguard has ofcourse been removed. As I say, a real find and an abolute keeper.

The "Orville by Gibson", as opposed to the Orville which were often Korean, are real sleepers.

[911S Targa]

I happen to love my Gibsons, even though they aren't old ones, ( they are probably around 3 or 4 years old).



LTD Swamp Ash LP Standard
Faded V

[Shuie]

Im off to find one of these now. Just found this one on a Japanese website. Company is Bacchus. Its an even more rare and accurate copy of the '58 flying V than my Tokai. Notice how the grain of the is diagonal on the two pieces that make up the wing of the V shape? Thats how Gibson did it on the real ones (the '58s, not the reissue stuff). Like the Tokai, the neck joint on this one is dead right. Thats something Gibson missed on the early reissue stuff. Other than that, the details, hardware, etc are identical to the Tokai.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I have a Strat but unfortunately it's a U.S. Squire, not a genuine Fender release. Still decent for someone like myself that's a tinkerer at best. I've swapped out most of the internals and it's got a pretty nice sound actually. If I was going to buy a really good guitar I'd personally consider an Ibanez though. Some of the best sound, versitility and ease of playing that I've come across. Very nice and a lot more bang for the buck than the Strat/Tele/Les Paul lines.

Like everything else in the U.S., expect manufacturing to go elsewhere (probably China, like everything else) and quality to go down the toilet in years to come.

[deathpunk dan]

man
I just could not get onstage with a faux gibson.

I just could not do it.

Having said that, I did own a 70's Ibanez black beauty lawsuit special I traded for another gibson les paul junior at one time, and that ibanez played much nicer than say, a les paul studio.

[Victor]

deathpunk - who is your audience? Fine antique guitar enthusiasts or pissed teenagers who want to rock out and vimit immediately afterward?

[deathpunk dan]

uhh
a mix?

Lets just say while I've toiled in a lot of local/regional bands, I have friends in ridiculously high places.

We'll see if my latest band gets anywhere. We do draw pissed off teens/20/30/40 somethings....

mc5/motorhead/thunders/dead boys/stooges/faces/stones rock and roll...

I was obsessed with Johnny Thunders as a teenager so I play yellow les paul juniors and specials, in homage to him.

[Rick Lee]

Anyone ever see the old Guitar Player cover with Eddie Van Halen holding his korina wood Flying V? I think it's a '58 Gibson and IIRC, EVH said he had been offered $50k for it but declined. Maybe his having used it to record Hot For Teacher drove the price up.

There's a great vintage shop here in Bethesda call Southworth. A few yrs. ago they had a Flying V for around $40k with a letter of authenticity from Ray Davies that he had owned it. Once I walked in there and the guy at the counter was on the phone with Eric Johnson, who has picked up a few vintage axes there too. I just can't justify spending that kind of money on guitars. I have a Tex Mex Strat with EMG's, a '62 reissue Les Paul and an ES-335. All are pretty new and play wonderfully and didn't break the bank.

[Victor]

Sounds good deathpunk - all the best wishes from "downunder" - did'nt mean to sound condescending by the way. My only audince is my dog......


Love a nice guitar / amp though.

[Shuie]

Rick, Eddies Korina V is one of the 91 real ones. You cant put a $ figure on what his would be worth at auction, but the collector grade authentic Gibsons that were for sale 7-8 years ago when I was collecting were worth well over $100k. They are easily $250k+ these days. Gruhn has a flametop '60 Les Paul Standard for $275k if anyone is in the market

As far as the faux Gibson thing goes, Ive spent a lot of money of Gibson stuff in the last 10 years, and aside from an 8# long neck tenon '58 historic reissue les paul that I paid $3200 for, none of them are better than an $800 Tokai. And that '58 was not a better guitar than the typical $1200 Tokai.

Forget being in the same ballpark if you want to compare flying Vs, the Korina '83 Gibson reissue flying Vs are not even playing the same game as my $650 Tokai or the Bacchus I posted pictures of. The later '90s Korina Gibsons are a tad better than the '83s at $4500-$6k each.

Ive owned a lot of Gibsons. They are not terrible guitars, but I wouldnt trade either of my Tokais to have any of them back.