Sunni or Shiite? How can you tell?

[Andras Nagy]

Okay, this is a real question, not meant for joking or bull****.

What with the Shiite killing the Sunnis, and the Sunnis killing the Shiites, how can one tell one from another? I couldn't tell you whether a person is a Baptist or a Methodist, so how can Arabs tell a Shiite from a Sunni?

Since the difference between Shiite and a Sunni stems from whether or not they believe in one or more prophets, this seems to be a difference in belief, not a difference in physical appearance (such as between the Tutsi and the Hutu, for example; or the Turks and the Armenians, for another example). Note that both of THOSE people conducted genocide against the other, but it was "easy" to identify each of those groups from physical appearances.

Could it be just where they live (as in Shiite ghettos or Sunni ghettos)? And if you're a Shiite, and you blow up in a Sunni ghetto, you're more than likely to kill Sunnis because that's where they live?

Just asking.

Does anyone really know?

[NICKG]

hopefully they kill themselves off completely....end of that problem now isn't it....seriously, I can't understand how these people can be so narrow minded as to kill someone because they have a slightly different religous view....If I was god, I would be really pissed off about what is carried out in my name. I am not a religious person, but I would be a fool to say that relious people don't have a place. Having read the Koran, Torah and most versions of the Bible, it is really amazing how these zealots interpret what all these book have in common...they all say the same thing basically, they all acknowledge similar ideals, why should it matter if my God is named David, or Allah? The point is that they all acknowledge a higher power. Is that worth killing over? I just don't understand backwards people like that

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Andras Nagy
or the Turks and the Armenians, for another example).

Bad example, the Turks and Armenians have very different genetic backgrounds and came into the Anatolia peninsula many, many centuries apart. However one thing in common is that once there (Turks decended from the Mongol hords) there was a "mixing" with the local population. Very different backgrounds both genetically and culturally though.

[dhoward]

Nipple hair.

[Andras Nagy]

Yes, but I think that Northern Ireland proves my point.

Catholics and Protestants were living in "ghettos" of their own choosing. And they (both sides) then went and shot people in the OTHER ghetto, without regard to whether they were Catholics or Protestants. Unlucky for you if you were in the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time.

The same might be true in Iraq; THEY are blowing up people in the OTHER neighborhoods, regardless of who they might actually be (Shiite or Sunni or even Saudi or Jordanian or Egyptian).

Another profound question: Why are the clerics, imams, and other religious people not protesting this wanton, indescriminate blowing up of their own people? Muslim is NOT about blowing up people, no matter what their "politics".

Or another question: If indeed Iraq is such a small nation where everyon knows everyone else (the nature of a tribal society), then why don't common people rat out the location of the insurgents? Surely THEY know who is an outsider, and who is not.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Andras Nagy
then why don't common people rat out the location of the insurgents? Surely THEY know who is an outsider, and who is not.

From what I've been reading, which just might be Pentagon Psyops, the locals are helping US troops and warning them of roadside bombs and ambushes ahead.

Sample of Psyops:
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/devries/psyops.htm

And some of you guys don't like CNN.

Note: There might be "dress code" differences which we don't know anything about.

[Nathans_Dad]

One's a pull-start and the other a push-start?

I know, that was insensitive...I feel dirty...shame on me.

[Jeff Higgins]

My impression, and it may be wrong, is that the division lies on tribal and ethnic lines that existed long before Islam. I believe those divisions in Islam are a result of long held differences between these tribal/ethnic factions.

[Drago]

One group wears dirt colored clothing, the other sand colored clothing?

[Andras Nagy]

You boys are BAD!

And to think I was asking a serious question(s).

[Nathans_Dad]

The serious answer (from being over there personally) is you can't. There is no way to tell by looking at them or by their dress. Just which mosque they go to.

[dhoward]

You gotta wait for them to flash some sign, dog.

[Andras Nagy]

Thanks Rick,

And that was, I think, my whole point. It seems that the insurgents are killing indiscriminately, and yet the rest of the 99.9% population is doing nothing.

As I understand it, yes, the population is composed of tribal loyalties more than "national" loyalties ( as in the USA), and thus they should be able to spot outsiders and tell the "good guys" where the "bad guys" are. Surely during Saddam's reign, they knew who was who, and he persecuted them.

I guess it will only happen when the majority of the population realizes that they have more to gain as a nation than as a tribe.

Another rhetorical question - how long can "modern" communication not influence people to want more than just tribal, or repressive governments, to want change? We see change coming slowly into Iran (where women are not wearing their faces covered), and we see change in Saudi Arabia (where they recently elected two women to government positions (albeit to minor positions)), but change is coming, and the Internet is a facilitator of such changes.

If the Internet can be used by the insurgents to spread hate, then the Internet can be used to spread information and tolerance.

Only time will tell!!!!!! But how long must we wait?

On a lighter note, say hello to my in-laws on Warwick Drive (Avenue) in San Antonio.

[Nathans_Dad]

Andras you have hit the nail on the head.

All this talk of quelling the insurgency is missing the vital point that the insurgency will stop when the IRAQI PEOPLE get sick of being blown up every day. No amount of US forces or planning will stop this until then. Once the Iraqi people start to retaliate against the terrorists it will stop within months.

This is why I think the Democrats call for withdrawal is coming at an obscenely bad time. Right now the tide is starting to turn (IMHO). You hear stories of Sunni clerics encouraging people to vote in the elections and run for office. You hear about Sunni clerics preaching about stopping the insurgent attacks instead of fueling them. You see tips against the insurgents increasing at a huge rate. This is exactly the WRONG time to withdraw and leave the country to the insurgents.

I might be proven wrong, but I think that in the next year you will see a very significant change in Iraq. I think the Iraqi people will finally begin to defend their country and choose a peaceful nation.

[Andras Nagy]

Right Rick,

We have to remember that Iraq is the Cradle of Civililization. Civilization was centered at the conflugence of the Euphrates and the Tigris Rivers (notice that I said "civilization", not mankind. That's a whole 'nother story).

Anyway, the problem was that the tribes of Iraq got stuck in the 12th Century, and the world has passed them by. Once they join the 21st Century, then they will see how cool it is to have women around them (not just as bearers of their children), to be able to have all the nice things that money can buy (like Porsches, staying on the BBS theme), and being able to oust the scoundrels in their midst (like the French did during the Revolutions, like the Hungarians tried during their brief "revolution, and how the East Germans did during 1989 with their wall.

Freedom is an infectious thing. We just have to plant the virus - people will spread it. And the entire world can benefit.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Andras Nagy
Freedom is an infectious thing. We just have to plant the virus - people will spread it. And the entire world can benefit.

Oh, you guys are so cute when you dream and talk that way. I just want to give you all a big hug.

Now if you could just figure out a way of spreading freedom without the use of depleted uranium, cluster bombs, fuel air bombs, white phosphorous, napalm and explosives the world would be better off.

[KFC911]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
My impression, and it may be wrong, is that the division lies on tribal and ethnic lines that existed long before Islam. I believe those divisions in Islam are a result of long held differences between these tribal/ethnic factions.

I think that's the point that many in our administration (and the media) keep overlooking. How many times have we heard that Sadaam gassed 'his own people'. No, the Kurds are not 'his own' people. Since 'artificial boundaries' created Iraq, we tend to view them as killing themselves, but in reality, they are just continuing to do what they've been doing for a loooong time. I'm not at all taking up for Sadaam, so don't misunderstand, but in one sense his brutality held that country together imo. It 'is what it is', and that is why I personally don't have high hopes that a western style democracy will take hold there...I hope I'm wrong.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by KC911
I think that's the point that many in our administration (and the media) keep overlooking. How many times have we heard that Sadaam gassed 'his own people'. No, the Kurds are not 'his own' people. Since 'artificial boundaries' created Iraq, we tend to view them as killing themselves, but in reality, they are just continuing to do what they've been doing for a loooong time. I'm not at all taking up for Sadaam, so don't misunderstand, but in one sense his brutality held that country together imo. It 'is what it is', and that is why I personally don't have high hopes that a western style democracy will take hold there...I hope I'm wrong.

I agree with what you wrote KC911.

I've also been hearing in the news that Saddam did a good job of keeping the terrorist out. How's that for irony?

[Andras Nagy]

Yep, he did it by fear, intimidation, repression, and murder. But he did it.

The ones who benefitted were the Sunni, who are, after a minority in Iraq. The one who were opresssed and murdered, were the Shiites, who are the majority.

And since Iraq under Saddam was not a democracy, the one who murdered had the power, and the majority couldn't "impeach" him. In fact when they tried to "impeach" him by assassination, he murdered them (or had his two sons , now thankfully dead themselves, do the murdering).

But the funny thing is that the "normal" Iraqi, the average "Joe" is ready to embrace democracy, becasue he sees its benefits over a dictatorship. And the rest of the world seems to be witness that, with democracy, one can have much more (either materially, or even spiritually, as in freedom of religion), than in any other "system" of government.

Let's not foget that a wise man called Winston Churchill (or was it de Toquville?) once said "Democracy may not be perfect, but it is more perfect than any other system of government".