Do We Resemble Germans?

[Superman]

My boss just got back from a nice vacation. He needed it. Left the kids at home and had a blast with his wife. Good for him.

He can't stop talking about German cars. He rode in a few, and was astonished at their functionality. Duh. He now reports that he sees what the big fuss is about German cars and German engineering.

Germany is heavily unionized. Their living standards are high. Their wages and benefits are high. They make a range of cars, some of which compete with the Asian automotive blitzkreig. And they make some cars that compete with the finest cars Asia can muster. And then some. They don't make cheap cars so much as they make good cars.

America is getting its ass kicked up one side of this planet and down the other. So.........

Are we making the mistake of not competing with the Japanese? Or are we making the mistake of not competing with the Germans? And what's it gonna take to get us into the semi-finals? Do we want to take over worldwide VCR machine manufactuuring? Or do we want to get into the winner's circle using innovation and quality? And where does education fit into all this?

Random thoughts. Or maybe not so random.

[Rot 911]

Look at their unemployment rate.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Look at what unions are doing to our country. Probably not the best route to take.

[NICKG]

I think we do resemble germans...circa 1934. With all of out "terrorist propaganda" we are facing a similar situation to the average german in 1934...we are limiting out civil rights voluntarilly, we have random Id checks.....it is the 4th Reich rising

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by Superman
the big fuss is about German cars and German engineering.

Just goes to show you how well the marketing "catch phrases" have worked. "Germany Engineered" this and "European Inspired" that.....

I work with German engineers almost every day. They are not SO much smarter than US engineers. Physics do not work different for a German engineer. I am sick of people downplaying the intelligence of the US. The only reason your boss liked the German car was because it was expensive. News flash *Expensive cars are nice*

Why are people so eager to have America be "worse" than other countries?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally posted by tobster1911
Just goes to show you how well the marketing "catch phrases" have worked. "Germany Engineered" this and "European Inspired" that.....

I work with German engineers almost every day. They are not SO much smarter than US engineers. Physics do not work different for a German engineer. I am sick of people downplaying the intelligence of the US. The only reason your boss liked the German car was because it was expensive. News flash *Expensive cars are nice*

Why are people so eager to have America be "worse" than other countries?

Yes, but even an affordable German sedan has a higher quality feel than an American one. Compare a Chevy and a VW. American cars are engineered to a price point, with quality, engineering, and innovation often taking a backseat. Or, for that matter, compare a Cadillac and a BMW. Similar price range, but at least for me I know which one will provide the superior quality, both in fit and finish and driving dynamics. Unfortunately the Asians are better at building quality cheap cars than we are, leaving American manufacturers stuck in the middle, losing market share.

It's not the engineer's fault, it's the managers above them, as well as the incredibly high overhead thanks to unions, pensions, etc.

[NICKG]

i for one don't think we are dumber or smarter , but we live in a culture that values the lowest common denominator.and that shows the dumber easier..in Germany people who are gifted are nurtured...here they are nerds. Look at our most popular motorsport...nascrap, the whole thing is a microcosim of america...you have your redneck Jr fans...etc. We value things in a screwed up way, we work longer and take much less vacation, yet we produce less because no one cares about their job, the company theu work for or much of anything else outside their little world

[M.D. Holloway]

In engineering grad school, most all the students were Asian, a few from Europe and only a very few from the states. The ones from the states stood out as being forward thinkers, creative almost to a fault and weak in math.

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by onewhippedpuppy
Yes, but even an affordable German sedan has a higher quality feel than an American one. Compare a Chevy and a VW.

VW Jetta ($17,900 starting) 2.5L 22/30mpg (manual)
22/30mpg (automatic) 150 hp 2.5L 5-cylinder


Pontiac G6 ($17,990 starting)167 hp
EPA (City/Highway) 23/34 mpg†
Engine: 2.4L 4 Cylinder ECOTEC®


Chevy Cobalt SS
MSRP* $18,790.00
Engine: 2.4L DOHC ECOTEC four-cylinder with 171 hp

I will agree that in the 80's American cars < ROW cars. But the cars being made today are very comparable to German cars. It is a perception that has been highly cultivated that US cars are junk.

[IROC]

Originally posted by tobster1911
I work with German engineers almost every day. They are not SO much smarter than US engineers.

I agree with your statement. In fact, as far as ingenuity goes, I would put American engineers up against those from any other country.

I had the pleasure of working on a NASA program for years (Spacelab) where all of the hardware (flight and ground support equipment) was designed and fabricated by different European countries for ESA and then given to NASA to fly on the Shuttle. We (McDonnell Douglas at the time) "owned" this hardware from a design standpoint once it was delivered, so I got to know alot of it very well.

While I was impressed with all of it, here are some general observations on hardware from different countries:

German (ERNO/Dornier): Overly complex, but brilliantly designed. Some of the neatest stuff I've ever seen.

British (British Aerospace, mostly): Excellent designs and extremely efficient structures for how lightweight they were. Impressive.

Italians (Aeritalia): Worst drawings I've ever seen (except for the Japanese), but their hardware was very functional and worked great. Not real big on tolerancing or repeatability.

Spanish (Sener): Seemed to make everything from scratch (even structural members, but very elegant design solutions. Basically iron-mongery, but each piece was a work of art.

Ah...the good ol' days when Shuttles actually flew...

Mike

[legion]

Originally posted by tobster1911
I will agree that in the 80's American cars < ROW cars. But the cars being made today are very comparable to German cars. It is a perception that has been highly cultivated that US cars are junk.

I've owned American cars from the 80's, 90's, and 2000's.

Every single one of the 80's cars was junk. The 90's cars are solid, certainly comparable with Japanese cars from the same time. 2000's cars are really no different, IMO.

[Burnin' oil]

I resemble a central African. Supe, you resemble a swarthy Carthinian.

[red-beard]

Originally posted by Superman
Germany is heavily unionized. Their living standards are high. Their wages and benefits are high. They make a range of cars, some of which compete with the Asian automotive blitzkreig. And they make some cars that compete with the finest cars Asia can muster. And then some. They don't make cheap cars so much as they make good cars.

America is getting its ass kicked up one side of this planet and down the other. So.........

Let's throw some data at the subject:

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity

USA - - $40,100 (2004 est.)
Germany - - $28,700 (2004 est.)

So, no, they don't make as much as we do.

Unemployment rate

USA - around 5% and getting better
Germany - 10.6% (2004)

Benefits? They do get more vacation (4-6 weeks vs 3-5 weeks here), Medical is Nationalized, taxes are higher and you have to register with the local mayor when you move. One of my companies counterparts to me in Germany earns about 2/3rds what I do and pays a higher percentage income tax. We compared property taxes (about the same taxes, but his house value is lower). I would guess his disposable income is close to 1/2 of mine. We have the same title and job function.

His medical benefits on paper are better (100%) but they have waiting lists, etc for procedures and long waits when they go for care.

They have similar illegal immigration issues and a secondary problem with legal immigrants who are "German Citizens" but not "German". A lot of those people are from Turkey.

So, no, Germany has it's problems too. But, it's the best of the Bunch in Europe.

[Superman]

Wow. I just read the first few responses and I wonder what you guys are using for brains. You can make this into a thread that bashes the organizations that work toward better wages and benefits for workers. If you want.

You can make it into a thread that pretends German cars are simply more expensive and that's their only appeal.

And I'll think you guys are just a little, no make that a LOT daffy and a LOT argumentative and accusatory. Whiners without a clue.

Fact is, my boss has no financial need to even come to work. The cars he is comparing with the BMW that he now raves about are some of the spendiest cars you see on the road. I got a hot news flash for you, Tobster. The world regards German cars and German engineering to be at the top of the heap for a reason. Go buy yourself a Jaguar if you can't tell the difference.

And those of you who jump at the chance to blame everything on the organizations that work toward the betterment of working men and women can start your own thread.

What I was saying (and I'll go back and continue reading with the hope that someone has more brains than anger) is that Americans have been innovators all along, and that is how we have (in the past) maintained our economic superiority. Don't look now folks, but we're just about to find outselves in a distant fifth place in that category. I'm hoping to have a productive discussion about how we can get back on top and stay there. Maybe this is the wrong place for that.

[Superman]

Originally posted by onewhippedpuppy
Yes, but even an affordable German sedan has a higher quality feel than an American one. Compare a Chevy and a VW. American cars are engineered to a price point, with quality, engineering, and innovation often taking a backseat. Or, for that matter, compare a Cadillac and a BMW. Similar price range, but at least for me I know which one will provide the superior quality, both in fit and finish and driving dynamics. Unfortunately the Asians are better at building quality cheap cars than we are, leaving American manufacturers stuck in the middle, losing market share.

It's not the engineer's fault, it's the managers above them, as well as the incredibly high overhead thanks to unions, pensions, etc.

Okay, Matt got it. On the very next post. Thanks, Matt.

You union bashers and liberal bashing whiners should talk to Wayne about getting your own Forum.

[red-beard]

Originally posted by Superman
The world regards German cars and German engineering to be at the top of the heap for a reason.

Not in any of the businesses I've been employed.

Power Generation: GE kicks _everyone's butt. Almost everyone else has dropped out of the business.

Small Gas Turbines: Solar Turbines is the best in the world. No German or Japanese competition.

Compressors of all sorts: Atlas Copco just offered to buy our Turbo compressor division, because we have better designed and engineered products that sell for less and cost less to make.

[Superman]

Originally posted by Burnin' oil
I resemble a central African. Supe, you resemble a swarthy Carthinian.

Nope, not particularly swarthy, although I tan pretty dark in the Summer.

[red-beard]

Geez, can't you guys stay on topic!!!

....uh, oh yeah...

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by NICKG
I think we do resemble germans...circa 1934. With all of out "terrorist propaganda" we are facing a similar situation to the average german in 1934...we are limiting out civil rights voluntarilly, we have random Id checks.....it is the 4th Reich rising

Assume that you have spent a lot of time Germany or other overseas counties? I have lived in 5 countries around the world not counting America. The vast majority of Americans do not have the slightest idea how good they have it, even since 9/11.

There is no way to compare the situation now and Germany post-WW2. My ex-wife's family lived through that wonderful episode of history as well as the "liberation" of Berlin under the Russians. Not enough room to post all the stories that they told me.

Germany has a very strict labor force and unions control most of it. I was forced to work under a labor union when I lived there, had no choice.

The unemployment just dropped last week. It was 11.0% and it has gone down to 10.9%, first drop in a long time. I was in the high pay tier and forced to pay for private health insurance, as well as 40% tax. Sales (VAT) tax was 15% and now is going up to 18% on everything you buy.

Their engineering is excellent as is their quality in most cases. We can learn from them and incorporate part of that into our products. To tell the truth I cannot think of a American vehicle I would be interested in buying, unless I needed a truck. Detroit still does not realize that there are those of us out there who want quality, handling and style in the same package. In many cases they keep trying to make a new car every year to boost sales, instead of keeping the same model for 10 years and improving it every year. Until they realize this and start making a quality product, they have lost my business.

Joe A

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by Superman
Fact is, my boss has no financial need to even come to work. The cars he is comparing with the BMW that he now raves about are some of the spendiest cars you see on the road.

WOW, your brains must be so much better than the rest of ours. Your boss compares "spendiest" cars and likes the BMW. Proves my point. Expensive cars are supposed to be nice. Name for me the Domestic cars he is comparing to said BMW?

Originally posted by Superman
The world regards German cars and German engineering to be at the top of the heap for a reason.

That reason has been overplayed for way too long IMO. As I said, in the 80's German cars < US cars. This only lasted into the mid 90's but the perception has stuck.

Why do you not live in Germany?
Why do you hate that I defend American engineering?