Some questions about 996s
 

At first I wasn't the biggest fan of the 996, but have by late grown to like these cars. I particularly enjoy the raspy exhaust tone, and I think their shape is pretty easy on the eyes.

However, I have been told that the 996's durability is so suspect, that new car dealers DO NOT even take 996s in on trade ins. Is this true? If so, it definitely says something about reliability and trust in the product.

Lastly, what will these cars cost in 5 to 10 years? Will they go for substantially less money? Will they be as reliable at ten to fifteen years of age as an SC or late Carrera?

If I were to get one of these cars, all I perceive doing to it is some lightening of its weight, and maybe change the shocks. Otherwise it would remain stock.

Any suggestions or ideas? Thanks.

SmileWavy

There was a recent article in Excellence about the reliability of 996s/Boxsters (their engines are very similar). Essentially, the article stated that the 996 engine is very durable, but they do have a few problems. Many suffer from an RMS (rear main seal leak). This is not a big deal, and the updated seal that Porsche now uses should fix the problem for good. Other than that, there is no common malady. A few have had engine failures (a very few), but I don't think there's a 911 model since the beginning that that isn't true of.

All 911s have their quirks - the 996 is no different. However, if you find a used one that had been well taken care of, you should be fine. As a sidebar, my 1998 Boxster has had not had one issue since new, and it uses essentially the same engine as the 996. 996s and Boxsters are more reliable than people think.

Like you, they really have grown on me. The design just keeps looking better and better in my eyes.

I know there have been some issues, but I think they are generally considered a true Porsche heritage - even in the reliability / durability department.

My colleague bought one new '99. He has been driving it daily ever since. Extremely happy about it and never any problems. Just one testimony of course.

David,

FWIW, I've driven a couple of 996s, a 6-speed and a Tiptronic S, and while they both went like stink and stopped like an F-14 on an aircraft carrier, each time I came away feeling unmoved.

The men -- and women -- at Weissach are very clever people: they succeeded in making the 996 feel like an average front-engined coupe -- at Rodeo Drive speeds.

At Willow Springs speeds, well, I've heard that the 996 will bite you like an air-cooled 911 will if you fail to observe the slow-in, fast-out rule that applies to <I>all</I> rear-engined cars.

As for the reliability question, I think Porsche had to cut some corners, but, generally speaking, I think they're as robust as they need to be. Are they as robust as their air-cooled forerunners?

Only time will tell.

Those head lights....UGH. I could never get past them...

I find the look of the 996's very boring in plain in the bone stock setup. if you add the aero kit to it (and possibly the rear spoiler) i think it looks drop dead gorgeous

The RMS issue is a VERY BIG deal. Just check out the Boxster board PPBB.com. It's discussed there often. Also, I think it's shown up on 997s as well. Can't remember where I read it. Doesn't mean that 996s are bad though. The RMS thing doesn't affect all Boxsters and 996s.

It's a big deal in the sense that a lot of cars have the issue, but it's not a big deal in that it can be easily fixed. There were a few porous case issues, which was different than the RMS issue, but most of the porous cases have been taken care of. I haven't heard of anyone with a porous case for quite awhile.

http://www.***********.com/model/986catalog/986.33.html

There are a couple of companies which make band-aids for just that issue.

[IMG]http://www.***********.com/model/986catalog/pp-401-980.jpg[/IMG]

With the 997 out, 996 prices will probably drop even faster. As it is, you can pick one up for nice 993 money. That would be my only reservation, it's a lot of car for the money, if it's to keep I'd go for it.

I'll be interested to see what happens when 996s and Boxsters start needing rebuilds, with Porsche only selling complete rebuilt engines and not internal parts for rebuilds. Will they become disposable cars?

Matt, I had not head that internal parts were unavailable. In that case, any guess what a complete rebuilt motor is going for?

I keep hearing that Corvettes are piles of GM steaming dung. Porsche guys keeping justifying very expensive problems as "Porsche Heritage" while the lesser things in GM cars make them unworthy. Nice logic.

E

No clue, I just recall reading that in Excellence. I don't remember them being more than a typical rebuild though, but it will ruin anybody who wants to DIY.

Wow, where'd that come from? Porsche has acknowledged the RMS problem, and is now repairing it under warranty with an improved part. I have never called Corvettes crap, even in the recent GM threads, I have made comments regarding their build quality and the driving experience in comparison to the 997. All of these comments have been gleaned from magazines such as C&D and reported as such, as unfortunately I'm not shopping for a $50k car right now.

Wow! At sub $10k for a rebuilt motor with a factory warranty, the 996 has suddenly become very appealing.

Sub $10 even if it is with an exchange is a great deal. This really has me thinking.

Yeah, FVD in Florida sells create engines for right around $6K - $7K. One of these days, I'm going to buy a 3.4 996 engine and stick it in my Boxster.

I can guarantee a rebuild of a 993 engine is a lot more than $6K.

Halm, I'm not sure if you are serious or sarcastic. :confused:

Anyway, the 996's have lots of engine and transaxle issues. Spending $30,000 for the car (great deal!), then $10,000 for the motor, then crossing your fingers on the transaxle doesn't sound like a great deal anymore.

The engines have suffered catastrophic events. It's not like 911/964/993 engines that 'merely' leak all their fluids, or lift a head, or eat valve guides ..... the engines still run. The 996 motors eat themselves, sometimes violently. Intermediate shafts. Timing chains. Bore liners. Main bearings. Flywheels. Crunching sounds are good for cereals, not engines.

The transmissions are brittle and esoteric. Clutches are 6-10K miles or until the main seal spews oil on it. 1st and 5th synchros, pinion bearings, etc. are NOT available through Porsche. You must buy a complete transaxle, exchange.

So we can all jump for joy that Porsche has been 'kind' to price the factory engine and trans at 'reasonable' prices. But they're still expensive, and you may end up spending 30-40% of the car's value.

Buy a 996 or 986 (Boxster) that just had one or the other (or both) done under warranty. The owner should be ready to bail by then.

E

I think that may be way overstating the problem. I'm not going to argue, because I don't have the facts right in front of me, I would advise anybody interested to find Excellence from two months ago, B.A. had an excellent article on the 996 engine, and how it was overall on a par with Porsche's excellent lineage of flat 6s.

Maybe, just like the '95 540i you own. Notorious for bad engines. Has yours had one yet in its lifetime? Do you know anyone that has a 94/95 that has? Well known, well documented. So are the problems with the 996/986 motors, particularly 98/99 which happen to be the 'cheaper' 996's in question.

Buy a great warranty and life is good. Well, good when the car isn't in the shop where you aren't enjoying it.

E

Original engine, 136k and still going strong. According to a well respected engine rebuilder, 8/10 of the "bad" Nikasil engines that they get in as cores are actually mis-diagnosed problems, because of the same bad rep. When too many people yell fire when there's just smoke, it will ruin a cars reputation, even if it's not justified. Were there problems, sure. Should a potential buyer be careful, of course. But is it a reason not to buy a car, no. A good Nikasil today will wear just like any other engine, and it's no reason to pass up a car.

I actually really like the look and drive of the 996. Classy and clean and a really sweet drivetrain but a price tag to match.

That said, today I saw, not one, but two 996s on flat beds being towed (no accident damage). Either the owners had bad choices for parking spots or 996s don't run well in -18C degree Canadian weather.....

I just can't get over the headlights.

However, if you can- there is an article in the October 2005 (Issue 139) of '911 & Porsche World' about rebuilding the M96 engine. Interesting stuff!

If you can't find it, PM me and I'll send you my copy.

Cheers,

Paul.

I'm not sure where kaisen is getting his information, but I have been frequenting Boxster and 996 Boards almost daily for the past few years. I have never heard of any serious issues with 996 transmissions. I suppose there are a handful of people that have had issues, but I have never heard of anyone on any of the Boards having transmission issues. It is most certainly not a widespread problem.

Ditto for the 996 engines eating themselves alive. Yes, I have heard of people who have had failed engines (just like people used to have chain tensioners fail). But, they are few and far between.

Unless kaisen works at a Porsche repair facility, I have no idea how he can substantiate his claims.

Read his other posts. I think he's Executive VP of Quality Control and Design Innovation at GM. :p

:D I was going to suggest a jilted lover of German cars, burned deep by making a bad purchase. Either way, he sure as hell doesn't like foreign cars for participating on a BMW & Porsche forum.

As far as 996s holding their value, I think they will do quite well as long as the 997 is in production.

People who want to look like they're driving a $80,000 new Porsche with only spending $30K will buy 996s. A 1999 996 looks a lot like a new 997...your average neighbor will think you're driving a new car. These cars will continue to hold their value OK until Porsche makes a radical styling change, then watch them drop like a stone.

I consider the 1999-up non-GT3/Turbo 911s to be disposable, assembly cost-engineered cars much like the older water cooled cars. Their engine issues confirm this. I think the 996 is more of a 928 replacement (with a 911 resemblance and engine location for marketing purposes). It was designed by marketers to be a sales success, which it is. The 993 was the last of the designed-to-endure Porsches...it was never really replaced and probably never will be.

Any fact to the rumor Porsche dealers will not take 996s on trade in?

Well, that speaks for one lot. But that only means your local lot is either enlightened or run by suckers.

One of the latest Porsche mags have an artice on what the problem actually is. A shaft that runs the oil pump has a bearing failure, stops pumping oil, and that's it for the engine. I think it may be Autofarm in the UK, have a fix that means pulling the engine to bits, machining the block and fitting some new (more) parts. My mechanic tells me the 996 engine parts are very crappy compaired with 993 and earlier cars. Very off the production line at the cheapest cost. 996s will be very hard to sell in the future.

Bill - that's interesting. I've heard the air cooled F6 holds an abundance of oil - more than needed actually - to compensate for failures such as the oil pump. I wonder if the water-cooled car is designed the same.

The standard 996 engines are a wet sump, so I think they have a lower capacity of excess oil. The GT3 had a dry sump though.

Actually, I am joking. But the person who told me this works for a highly respected shop, and said as much with a perfectly straight face.

Personally, I've always been doubtful. All I'm doing is attempting to not leave any stone unturned.

Curious why there isn't more downward price pressure? Why don't these dealers need to get them moving--does Porsche subsidize their used cars to keep prices up, like Lexus used to?

And how difficult would it be to convert the engine to dry sump?

At any rate, isn't there a race class that races standard wet sump 996 Porsches?

Seems like I read somewhere about converting to the GT3 system for the better pickup and extra oil capacity, don't quote me on that though. I think the standard system is sufficient for track days, just not ideal for a race car.

Well, OK, ARE they moving them? Seems like every Porsche dealer in this area is littered with 996s and Boxsters, whereas 993s are very hard to come by.

I wonder how the production numbers compare, 993s seem somewhat rare. Even just driving around town I've seen more SCs, Carreras, and 996s than 993s.

Exactly. Given supply, prestige, build quality, etc, you'd think that 996s would be significantly cheaper than 993s. I guess the 996 prices are still falling, though.

Free market economy (used cars) means the price moves toward equilibrium where supply and demand are relatively equal.

It's why 996s seem like good buys right now. There's lots of them, and demand wouldn't be very high if they were $10,000 more.

Dealers will take ANYTHING in on trade.... for the right price. Because they know they have to also price them right to resell them.

993's aren't readily available. There aren't 993s coming back to Porsche financial off lease like there are 996s and 986s. They HAVE to sell the 00-02's coming off lease in large numbers, a contributing reason to why they are cheap.

Porsche dealers have the advantage to offer a certified pre-owned (CPO) warranty that calms the fears of potential 996/986 buyers. So the motor breaks, big deal, it's covered.

E