Re: Do or Die
 

Only by the time most of Europe was already fubar. And then probably only because the Japanese threw a party in PH.

Nicely put Joe, when our culture as a whole offends them, and motivates them to attempt to kill us, how do we make nice? How do you compromise with someone that believes that he is called by his god to kill you? That's pretty powerful brainwashing, UN diplomacy isn't going to just take care of it. I agree that we have made mistakes in the past in the region, but just look at Iran announcing that they would confiscate Ipods or similar that have western music on them. The hate everything that makes us American, the only thing that would appease them is for us all to convert to Islam, and live life as they dictate. I'll be standing next to Joe on the front lines before I make that choice.

Sure Victor, but 20 years earlier we cleaned up Europe's mess, and when we tried to create a situation that would have been good for the world, Europe decided to prime the pump for Hitler. We'd done it before, and Europe wasted our efforts.

If we truly want to see what good can come from a concerted effort through policy and diplomacy, we need to see what they can do in Africa. Their time is past in the ME. The opportunity to change the region's mindset now rests with the military. But in Africa we can make great strides in this war by being proactive politically. Looking at what went wrong in the ME and adjusting our strategy accordingly could result in costing us a great deal less militarily in the future.

You really need to read up a bit, a clue does not appear to be popping into your head. This problem started a long time before GW was an itch in his daddy's pants. This religious war has been going on for centuries, and we(members of western civilization/infidels) have been in it from day one. It started long before 1948, or whenever Israel was created. Your existence is an affront to their tender sensibilities. The Islamic Extremists will stop when they are dead, or we are dead.

Folks like yourself, who have there heads stuck somewhere, remind me of Neville Chamberlain, or whatever the pre-Curchill Chief Limey's name was, consequently, I do think the Hitler reference is gemaine to this. Would you prefer a reference to someone else, Papa Joe or Kruschev maybe.

BTW, If they could care less, why is western culture banned in Iran, a nice example of what we are looking at if we lose.

I don't include Iraq in the War on Terror....I don't know what ot make of Iraq...I know that the Neo Cons had it out for Sadam since 1991..and that was long before Jihad hit our radar screens.

A successfull large scale WMD terrorist attack on the USA can collapse the financial markets...and that in a nutshell turns the electric lights off...so we will all be living like Teddy Kozinski was in Montana...

It will be a crisis of Liquidity...a run on the banks...Stocks, Bonds, RE, Collectables...all will be worth virtualy NOTHING.....Only Guns, Ammo, Gold, Diamonds will have value.

This is all worse case scenrio stuff...but imagine the shock to the system if a successfull attack does occur... If you disagree with me, do you think life would go on as it has with out interuption or change...911 put the fear of God into the poweres that be, cause it came close. and that leads to>>>>>

The USA and Western Nations security forces need to use whatever means necessary to stop such an event from happening....and believe me they are....

There is no doubt that USA policy, standards and practices have helped lead to this sad state of affairs... part of it was ignoring the problems in the ME during the Cold War as the USSR was the larger meance. But what our Liberal friends have to understand IS THAT IT IS THESE VERY STANDARDS AND PRACTICES THAT KEEP THE ELECTRIC LIGHTS ON for both Conservatives and Liberals.

I knew 30 years ago that Islam was an UNSTABLE religion that had a propensity for Jihad...from its inception in 660 AD to 1683 AD Islam was an expansive religion...It was defeated at Tours in 732 AD in France by Charles Martel after taking over Spain. Islam was finally ousted from Spain in 1492. The Ottoman empire was defeated by the Polish army at the gates of Vienna in 1683. Turning back the tide of Islam in Europe until the recent immigration of Muslims into Europe.

I also knew that Mao said that the next World War would be fought between the Industrial Nations of the North and the Third World Nations of the South.

But I never put the 2 together and/or gave it much thought.

Like all Religious fanatics or true belivers, they are irreconcilable... for they are on the path that God has set out for them.. and that is to wage Jihad against America and more specifically Americans...TO KILL AMERICANS whether they are Liberals or Conservatives it doesn't matter.

I came to a conclusion about politics while doing my evening run last night. Here it goes:

Political views are not opinions, they are more like preferences. For instance, I love chocolate pudding. And if you ask me I'll tell you I like it. Most people like chocolate pudding too.

But there is always gonna be that one mutha fu_ka that hates it. No matter how its prepared, served, or eaten they can't stand it. It makes them convulse.

The only difference between pudding and politics is that the pudding eaters can't understand why the non-pudding eater doesn't like the pudding. Out of pure frustration the pudding eaters try to cram the pudding down the non-pudding eater throat and/or alienate him.

Human nature.

Tabs,

I was taught years ago by some old Air America guys (not the liberal radio guys) about survival in difficult places. We kept $10,000 in cash or gold around the hooch per person and an extra passport and I see no reason to change now. No comment on weapons as I do not comment on this subject on an open forum. Suffice to say that we can take care of ourselves at my house.

We have enough water and food in the house at any time to last for 60 days, as well as enought gasoline to last for at least 30 days. Medicine as well and so on and the airplane and all the cars are fueled at all times to be ready in case. When any car gets below 1/2 tank, its refilled.

I hope that I never need it but should it come to that I will survive. Hope that my neighbours do as well but I am ready in case the brown material hits the fan. Hope that you guys are as well...

There will come a time where its "us against them" regarding Islam. We have to win, we have no choice in this matter. Lets get that mindset started now and make it work.

Joe A

Locking cockpit doors on jetliners would have prevented 9/11, even w/ Bush ignoring daily Presidential briefs warning of an iminent attack and an FBI agent trying to get her superior's attention about some suspicious Middle-easterners in flight schools in the U.S.

How many 100s of billions of dollars and dead and maimed soldiers and civilians would that have cost? :rolleyes:

I've never been the conspiratorial type, at all, but it is hard not to wonder if certain people and industries w/ a vested interest in war are not using a terrorist attack as an excuse for some absolutely horrible policy.

TABS - Why all this fear that a big bomb would ruin the world? Is that a fair assumption? Did the destruction of 2 cities ruin Japan?

I hope it never happens. But Warren Buffet put the odds at almost 100% in the next 50 years. So let's not bury our heads. Let's take a look. Let's assume a nuclear bomb, detonated by Islamic terrorists, destroys an American city. Do you really think that Bush or his successor would have trouble convincing the world to wipe clean the area between Egypt and Pakistan, with a little bit left over for N. Korea? Do you really think the American people would accept less, no matter what party the president represented?

And what would be the end-game result? Do you really think that a single bomb, or a couple of bombs in a couple of American cities would ruin modern civilization? Europe, Japan, India, China, Australia - all would continue on with something close to American ideals. We here in America would recover. But "modern" Islamic "civilization" would cease to exist. And OBL's dream of an Islamic Empire would be made impossible due to radioactivity.

Such a disaster would be world-altering, but not world-ending. And I'm pretty certain that our ideals would survive, while the terrorists' would not......

Basically, I'm saying WE ARE the wave of the future. THEY can't win. They can slow us down. And we can get lazy and careless and let them hang on a little longer. But we will prevail in the end. It is inevitable, hence I don't understand all the angst. We need defense and military intelligence; we also need freedom and creativity. It is this blend that got us here, and this blend that will see us through.

To only cling to one side of what makes us powerful is the only recipe for disaster.....

An Arab Muslim living in America for decades called into a talk show the other day. He said he wished that more Americans would wake up to the reality that the mind-set we're facing understands only one thing - "... overwhelming force."

I thought of an article by David Gutmann, clinical psychologist, that I saved back in '03. As a psych-minded fellow, the article's message spoke to me. Namely, re: the guilt-based vs. shame-based personality/character structure. A few paragraphs from his article:
.
"Guilt-dominant individuals tend to mistrust their own native aggression, and they will act to protect others from it.

When they are in the majority, they tend to maintain societies that will go to war only after they have been attacked. Tolerance, moderation, and charity are the official virtues of “guilt” societies, and play a part in shaping their educational practice, legislation, and foreign policy.

By contrast, shame-vulnerable individuals are constantly vigilant toward aggressions of others against their sense of honor. If insulted, they feel humiliation and rage. The shame-prone willingly submit only when the external power appears so invincible that there is no alternative but surrender. Beneath their outward defiance, the shame-prone often hold unconscious yearnings to be submissive; the seemingly omnipotent conqueror allows them to be passive without shame.

The cultivation of victim-hood is common in shame societies. Shame-prone men will look for malign external agents to rationalize any humiliation, for the victim is, by definition, not responsible for his own troubles. And the claims of victim-hood eliminate any guilty inhibitions against aggression, and unlock the fury that drives the terrorist legions of shame-based societies.

At present, the Islamic Middle East is where we see shame-based cultures in their purest form. The war against terror puts us in conflict with the most militant factions of highly shame-avoidant societies. While we are told much about the economic, ethnic, and sectarian influences that motivate these opponents of America, psycho-cultural elements of their radicalism have been neglected.

Middle Eastern Arabs in particular are currently suffering from a deep crisis of shame. Their physical, scientific, and economic backwardness in relation to the West is mortifyingly evident. Their military defeats at the hands of the Israelis and of the various coalition forces in Kuwait and now Iraq are plain to see. Throughout history, when Arabs have gone to war, it has not primarily been for strategic or economic reasons but rather to escape the stigma of shame. By prevailing in battle, they export shame to the defeated enemy. Today, Arab agitators insist that their honor has been taken from them and replaced by shame. They call for whatever means will get honor back.

Shame societies are most likely to attack an enemy who appears weak, rather than strong and threatening. The weak enemy is corrupt, effeminate, and ready to surrender his honor. The enemy’s perceived weakness is like catnip to shame-mongers, as they fantasize about the foe’s humiliation. Since 1947, Israeli-Palestinian relations have oscillated between war and peace, depending on whether the Arabs saw the Jews as shamefully weak or as intimidatingly strong. A brief history of that conflict tells us much about Arab management of shame.

The militaristic, authoritarian Germans and Japanese would not give up their fantasies of global conquest until the “decadent” democracies destroyed their armies, burned and atomized their cities, and sunk their fleets. Their arrogant, shame-obsessed rulers had to be jailed, or hung, before more sensible leaders could be installed.

Paradoxically, these total wars did not lead to a cycle of violence and enduring hate, but to lasting peace. After waging pitiless war, we showed great mercy to the former Axis powers and helped rebuild them from a rubbly waste into our major economic competitors. But in order to win their hearts and minds, mercy had to follow might, not precede it. When mercy shows first, the shame-prone will view it as a sign of guilt and weakness; but when generosity follows total war, it is like Allah’s mercy, a blessing from a power of unquestioned omnipotence.

In the shame calculus, the guerilla is like David talking on Goliath: Morally speaking, he never loses. Thus, defeatist reporters document a “quagmire,” and driven by unmanly fear, the enemy’s civilians may begin to demand an end to the costly struggle. Like the French in Algeria, the Soviets in Afghanistan, and the Israelis in Lebanon, the humiliated enemy, defeated by a numerically inferior but spiritually superior force, will carry the weight of Arab shame with him as he slinks away.

America cannot allow such a show of weakness in Iraq. The terrorist organizations must be smashed, and their sponsoring nations made to pay the price. If we withdraw in feebleness, triumphant Islamic terrorism will increase catastrophically."
.
Read the entire article here:
.
http://www.travelbrochuregraphics.com/extra/only_u_s_strength_can_defeat_islamism.htm

FINANCIAL IMPACT OF 911
 

This is what I know about the financial implications of the WTC attack.... some of my conclusions are based upon conversations with the gal who manages my money...

Her credentials are as follows nearly 40 years in the Financial services industry. The first 20 were in Banking, and from that experience knows the last 2 Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank and is in fairly constant communication with the current Chairman. Also she from time to time is asked for advice by the RNC on a "quid pro quo basis" Also her ex-husband is in the electronic security end of banking.

The day after 911 I called and asked her if I would be able to survive the long term implications of 911 finacially. Her comment was, "Don't worry because it won't matter if you have no money, a wheel barrel full of money, or plastic ...we will all be in bread lines."

Several weeks later over lunch, she told me that that the USA was able to shut down its financial system within 15 minutes. That even 2 weeks after 911 it still was taking a week to do wire transfers of money. she also said that the Presidnet of Bank of America didin't realize how fast the USA was able to shut down the transfer of money. She also said, "There are many ways to make a run on the bank." One is that Brokerage houses make markets in stocks..that means that they provide a floor of value for a stock/company and will buy that companies stock when it is priced at that level...but what happens when the Brokerage house runs out of money to keep buying those shares...the absolute bottom drops out...thus the reason why the Stock Markets were closed for a week ...to provide a cooling off period (when it did reopen it immediately dropped 500 points). Second the Federal Reserve lowered interest rates 7 TIMES during this period...why to keep the system LIQUID...to provide money to the system...Also during ther 911 week the Federal Reserve LOANED the EUROPEAN BANKS 80 BILLION $$$$$...why because they were not able to shut their financial systems down fast enough..and the USA was keeping the Europeans Liquid.

She also mentioned that Sadam, when he invaded Kuwait in 1990 looted their bank accounts around the world by electronically transfering Kuwaiti money to his accounts. That her ex-husband was able to stop a transfer of 100M within the last 15 seconds because he saw that something was amiss with the account.

From even a later conversation with her about 911..she said that GMs decision to drop its interest rate to 0% on new cars was one of the important decisons that helped save America..it helped keep Amercans buying and thus supporting the economy. When people get scared about he futher they don't buy they save their money, and 0% helped induce greed in the American consumer.

Also during this period many corporations announced stock buy back programs to help support their stock prices.

Also a year or so later Hank Goldberg who is Chairman of AIG Insurance co said that the insurance companies in the world were able to asorb the losses from 911, but they needed the US government to act as a REINSURER to which the insurance companies would pay a premium to. This was in case of another attack, which he said the insurance companies would be NOT be able to make good on if the US government didn't act as a Reinsurer agent.

Further..The Shadow (Political Party out of powers) Minister of Defense to the United Kingdom before Parliment said during that week, "The USA has provided global security since the end of WW2, if America fails to act, global security will fail."

Read that as Global Economy.

From my paltry knowledge of the macro economic moves taken during 911 you can get the feel of just how serious an event the attack on the WTC.was

Don,

As always, it is difficult to apply such a broad brush to arguably dissimilar Arab cultures. But in the main, and based on my impressions of over two years living in the Middle East, it seems worthy of debate.
Must cogitate.

This War on Terror really isn't a Clash of Civilizations ...west vs Islam...but of a Civil War within the Religion of Islam...Is Islam going to accept secularism and go into the 21st century or is it going to rely on the dogma of the 14th century and follow the path of fundlmentalism.

Al Zawhari MD...the #2 and Ideolog of Al Queda...was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and was jailed for several years in Egypt for his part in the assination of Sadat. He blamed the failure of fundlmentalisms take over of the Egyptain government on Amercia. That the US support of the Egyptian regime sustained it....thus his abject hatred for America...

With regards to wiping the slate clean between Egypt and Pakistan if the jihadists are successfull with a WMD attack...

1. If a WMD attack is successfullly carried out, the US govt would have ZERO credibility left in its ability to protect its people from attack. Thus what becomes the value of your assets in the face of its potential destruction. Stocks, Bonds, RE, Collectables etc....

2. The reason Terrorists are successfull is that they are able to hide among innocent people. Because Atta lived in Hamburg are we going to level Hamburg. If the Western World levels an entire region containing 200M innocent people then the world returns to Barbarism...for we will not only have punished the wicked but the innocent as well without discriminating.

Something interesting happened after the recent attacks in Jordan....one of the AL Qadea hideouts in Iraq was raided by the US and it was thought Al Qawazari was killed...that means he pissed off somebody in Jordan who then ratted them out...

Here I go, Tabs, Joe ,Noestatic and few,
those that doubt Tabs,and the mentioned.
try this ./STARTING NOW
,no cheating..could you.. 1 week. No ATM,no buying gas, no stores , water/elect. gas shut OFF..can you? DOUBT it
Don't like or believe in guns ..your going to wish you had one..cause the guy that has one will take your stuff..unfair ..tell your mom.
Read /or look back a Katrina...your neighbor could get crazy.
It's to easy to cut a paste articles...My Mom had to hide my Uncles in trashcans to keep them safe during the allied bombing of Berlin, she is grateful to be here today. She love's it here, she states "recent Americans" (boomer's i guess) have no idea what true survival is".
My fear is that like "great empires/civilizations ...'it's our turn to fall"
Rika

BINGO...Thats it....our Liberal friends just don't BELIEVE IT CAN HAPPEN.... They think nothing can HARM their existance as it is.....and the Democratic Party sure seems willing to ROLL THE DICE....(Remember i have said that the Boomers havn't known hard times only prosperity)

I say the powers that be are out there doing what needs to be done so that we can keep on driving our SUVs and watching the Superbowls on TV. Maybe that isn't the most ideal situation or most moral thing... but I like my standard of living and don't want anyone to take it away from me...

BTW: Standard of living also goes to belief systems as well..Such as having freedom of speech and freedom of religion as well as prolific consumerism.

Boomers also want to hold on to money, power, etc., at almost any cost - see Mr. & Mrs. Clinton & Bush II, and contrast how they act with Bush I and previous presidents, Nixon excepted.

On 9/12/2001, my Merrill Lynch broker (a Boomer) called ME (GenX), to tell me that my assets were safe. Was appalled at his cold bloodedness. But see we need that quality if we are attacked again.

Problem is I look at the openess of our Society, and think that either the terrorists suck at their jobs, or that they aren't really as large a threat as they've been made out to be. Why can't they do better? Maybe the reality is that they CANNOT do any better than be killing little pests. Maybe with a little thought and defense, we are largely safe from them already....

WWII is often mentioned as a golden age when everyone agreed. It was close to that for awhile. But the "Greatest Generation" was vowing never to fight for America under any circumstances just a few years before WWII, as were Lindbergh, Sen. Vandenberg and other conservatives. Things change when circumstances change.

Don't write off the Democrats just yet. Just have to wait until the war starts. A battle has begun, but they're not sure it is a war.

And who's to say it IS a war, and not simply a battle? 9/11 may be all there ever is; it may the the USS Panay - a disaster we just don't have the will to fight about; or it may be the Invasion of Poland. Can't say which it is from 12/21/2005 with perfect certainty, so we must hedge a bit - would hate to see America be destroyed by terrorists, so we must fight them. But would also hate to see America spent into servitude by fighting phantoms....

Well lets look at this way...Captured Al Qadea computers in Afganistan have Nuclear Bomb making information on them. Which at the very least shows an interest in them.

The head of Pakistans Nuclear program went to Afganistan and had conversations with Al Qadea.

There are several Soviet Suitcase Nukes among the missing...as in not knowing where they are????

There are literally 100,000s of Tactical Nuclear weapons laying about in the Soviet Union, guarded by underpaid guards

There are numerous Soviet Nuclear experts who are underemployed or not employed...

I think the correct answer to the question is that Al Qadea is being disrupted enough by the hounds on their trail that they are not able to pull off a big job. The West realizes the threat is serious so we keep on turning over rocks.

Tabs from my military experience the WMD attack likely won't be a dirty bomb (although certainly possible), it will be a bomb with a bioweapon attached. Went to a conference on WMD about a year ago and the guy who evaluates the risk of WMD for the US Gubmint was asked what the likelihood of another terrorist attack on US soil was. He answered "It isn't a question of if, but when".

guns - just added a second Sig to the safe
ammo - 3K rounds
water - 10 gallons potable
food - 10 days MREs
meds - check
gas - no storage for that. Try to keep at least one vehicle full
cash - stocking that but admitedly a bit low at the moment

Not perfect, but I'm doing OK. I'll take you challenge, but hope I never have to. One advantage to living in SoCal is that many of us are at least somewhat prepared for a "bad" scenario. At least for short-term survival. If it is long-term, all bets are off in metropolitan areas...