Do or Die

tabs · 12-20-2005, 02:55 PM

Onew of the things I have been ranting about since 911 is the sad fact that the Liberals don't get it.

During WW2 everybody got it, both Liberals and Conservatives knew that the fight was a DO or Die situation that the very survival of the nation was at stake.

What really amazes me today is that Democrats/Liberals don't seem to get the fact that the war on Terrorism is a do or die situation as well. If the USA fails in this war on terror, the USA as we know it will cease to exist, let alone the world.

Today the Liberal political faction in Amercia will sabotage the efforts of the goverment, to gain political traction. What they don't realize is that when officals get scared, because they realize they are powerless to control the situation. Those officals will resort to any means to advert a diaster that would alter the status quo irreversibily. Both political factions would act in the same manner in service of the system in place.

rcecale · rcecale's Garage

I think what the Master Buffeter is trying to say is that it would be nice if all sides of this issues could set aside their politicking for a moment and look at what's best for this country, and not their own political ideals.

In other words, Dems/Libs (and cool-chick, too), kwitcherb!tch!n!

Randy

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

Can the "war on terror" be won? Does it need to be engaged, or are there other ways? Could 9/11 have been avoided by policy changes? Can the next 9/11 be avoided by policy changes? Is force the only answer?

jorian · 12-20-2005, 03:08 PM

"....could set aside their politicking for a moment and look at what's best for this country, and not their own political ideals."

But that is just the point. Many (myself included) feel that what is best for the country is alot different than its' present course.

Tobra · Tobra's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by nostatic
...Could 9/11 have been avoided by policy changes? Can the next 9/11 be avoided by policy changes? ...

You learn something new every day. Here I had always thought there was no such thing as a stupid question.

If we change our policy of being alive, to one of not being alive, yes to both of the above questions.

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Tobra
You learn something new every day. Here I had always thought there was no such thing as a stupid question.

If we change our policy of being alive, to one of not being alive, yes to both of the above questions.

narrow minds have narrow thoughts...

onewhippedpuppy · 12-20-2005, 03:29 PM

What would it take to just level the middle east? Seems like that would win the war quite handily. Hey, it worked with Japan.

And before a lefty chimes in complaining about profiling, as soon as a white guy named Harold flies a jumbo jet into a skyscraper, I'll start looking that way.

Tobra · Tobra's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by nostatic
narrow minds have narrow thoughts...

Very concise response, simple, I like that. Appeasement was unsuccessful with Hitler, and the stated purpose of these folks is to kill all infidels, wipe out Western Civilization and make the world one big Islamic family. I am not willing to convert to the Muslim faith myself, but go on and knock yourself out. I have nothing against Muslims, I personally have never met a Muslim that I did not think was a better person than me.

If you honestly think that either of the assaults on the WTC, the successful one, or the attempt 8 years earlier, could have been averted by any action of the USA, you should perhaps get out more. This is a holy war to these people, and it started a millenium before the USA did. They hated you before you were born dude, I am all in favor of turning the other cheek, but here in reality we have to deal with our problems.

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Tobra
Appeasement was unsuccessful with Hitler

woohoo...we hit Hitler early in this one...

I would posit that 9/11 would not have happened if we had different foreign policy in the region. But more importantly, I ask the question because I believe it needs to be asked. Perhaps at this moment in time there is no choice but to wield a large hammer. But that too comes at a cost. And we cannot swing it forever. Another question on the table is whether or not we are in fact falling prey to "rope-a-dope" on the part of the jihadists. We were able to bankrupt the Soviet Union into submission with the arms race. Will the "war on terror" have the same effect, but in this case the other side will win?

I believe the question needs to be considered.

Nathans_Dad · Nathans_Dad's Garage

Which foreign policy would you suggest? Abandon Israel like they want? Give up on our oil interests? I'm not one to defend our gluttonous oil consumption, but it has made us the world's superpower. Still, I can't see what other foreign policy we could have had that would have appeased the terrorists.

mikester · 12-20-2005, 04:18 PM

Is the only way to fight the war on terror to use force AND to take away a man's freedom and his right to life, LIBERY and the pursuit of happiness?

Civil liberties are no joke and I will not give them up willingly.

In WWII the Japanese Americans of this country were largely interned into prison camps because they couldn't be trusted. Since this is a do or die situation would that be called for here with any person of arab decent?

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Which foreign policy would you suggest? Abandon Israel like they want? Give up on our oil interests? I'm not one to defend our gluttonous oil consumption, but it has made us the world's superpower. Still, I can't see what other foreign policy we could have had that would have appeased the terrorists.

Do we have to "abandon" Israel to make changes? Can't we change how we do things, or is it all or nothing?

Our gluttonous oil consumption may have made us the world superpower, but it will also lead to our downfall. The desire to hold to the status quo "at any costs" is what will destroy this country.

I think the real "war on terror" is actually an internal one. The "terror" is the American way of life going down the drain, and the entrenched powerbases (both sides) trying to hold on for dear life. The terror is the realization that we are on the downside of our "empire", and the fact that if we don't change we will sink into a bankrupt pool of irrelevant ooze.

Nathans_Dad · Nathans_Dad's Garage

I would agree with most of what you said Nostatic, but I would still like to know specifically what foreign policy moves you think led to 9/11/2001.

coloradoporsche · 12-20-2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

as soon as a white guy named Harold flies a jumbo jet into a skyscraper, I'll start looking that way.

A white guy named Timothy killed a bunch of women and children in Oklahoma City. Rounding up all the foreigners ain't going to solve the problem.

onewhippedpuppy · 12-20-2005, 05:17 PM

It was a joke, I don't support nuking the middle east into submission either, thought it would probably help our gas prices. It does annoy me though when the government is accused of profiling when they target people of middle eastern descent as terrorists. The simple fact is, the terrorists that attacked us were from the region, and we know for a fact that a large number of people in the area hate us with a burning passion. Camps such as in WW2 are a travesty, but we're kidding ourselves if we try to be PC and consider everyone an equal threat.

I also wonder what we could have done differently to avert the attacks? They see us as the great satan, the bane of their existence. In their opinion, everything that is wrong with their society is our fault. They believe that our culture and way of life is corrupting theirs, and see us as everything that is evil and wrong. How could we avoid pissing them off?

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by onewhippedpuppy
They believe that our culture and way of life is corrupting theirs, and see us as everything that is evil and wrong. How could we avoid pissing them off?

I don't know the answer, but I wish more people would ask the question. That's my point. The feeling I get is that the prevaling "wisdom" is "they hate the US, we have no choice, bomb 'em."

Look at the number of arab troops stationed in the US. Now look at the number of US troops stationed in the arab world. If you were in their shoes, how would you view the US? And no, I'm not making excuses for their behavior...killing is killing. BUT, if we don't try to figure this out, then we are doomed to spending ourselves into oblivion fighting an opponent that perhaps cannot be beaten.

onewhippedpuppy · 12-20-2005, 06:22 PM

The only difference is, with the exception of the recent conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, our troops were in place in the interest of those country's domestic security, aka protect the oil. Still, in most cases they wanted/ needed us there. I agree that in some ways this war may not be winnable. The only way we will have a chance is to promote change from within arab countries. If we can win the proverbian hearts and minds, it may be the key to reversing the hate of our culture. Otherwise, if those people aren't convinced that freedom and democracy is the way to live, as soon as we do pull out, another militant islamic regime of some sort will again take hold. Plus, if we hang them out to dry now, they'll just hate us more.

SLO-BOB · 10:49 AM

SLO-BOB · 10:49 AM

Joeaksa · 01:05 AM

Am hope that you guys all have extensive experience in Moslem countries to be feeling this way. I have just spent the last 8 weeks in that area and really wish there was a way to open your eyes as to what is going on over there.

Tabs is right, we are in a war that could end our society and completely eliminate our way of life and many of you guys do not realize it. Todd, you know me a bit and we agree more than we dis-agree but this is not the time to be less than very decisive in our activities abroad. Your comment on "can the war be won" is not a good sign. We have no choice, if we do not win we either convert to Islam or die. Personally I do not want either choice and choose freedom and a religion of my choice.

What you guys may not realize is that even in countries where there are no American troops stationed, we Americans are viewed by many Moslems as the enemy. When I was in Malaysia I asked many how they felt about Americans they said that they did not like what we were about and our ideas. I reminded them that America is made up of people from every country and religion in the world, Malaysia included, and that their citizens were killed in the WTC attacks and they became quiet and did not want to talk about it anymore. They are being brainwashed by their religious mullah's and when you confront them with the truth they in most cases have no argument. Still, they are willing to be a martyr and kill themselves if requested for "the cause"...

If the terrorists or radical Moslem's see any opening in our positions they will exploit it and do anything that they can to kill every American they can. REPEAT, KILL EVERY AMERICAN THEY CAN! That is what they want to do, end our country and way of life, at any cost. If you are not a Moslem, you are an infidel. The Koran states that infidels should be put to death and they are ready and willing to do this to us. Remember that no other religion is allowed according to Islam. Islam is supposed to be the best of all the other religions, so everyone does not need to worship another group. What they do not want to discuss is that Islam was set up in the year 1400 and more or less has not changed since. If you like living in the dark ages, then you will get along well as a Moslem.

Now, with the exception of Iraq, I believe that the American forces were INVITED into the country, so get off of that tack. I would prefer to get this situation over as soon as possible, pull everyone back to CONUS and live a nice happy life. The Moslems are not going to allow this until we make them realize that we can make more of them go to visit Allah than they want or can afford.

Now, lets talk about bombing the Middle East. We do not have to do it because the Israeli's are getting ready to do it for us! They have already stated in the press that if Iran continues to work with nuke devices that they will "take care of the situation" and after what they did in Libya we know that this means that they will bomb and kill as needed to stop their production of nuke devices. Just wish that they would continue on to N. Korea and do the same there. Course Iran is making it very easy, saying that Israel should be relocated to Europe and that the holocast did not happen. Forking idiot in charge there, he needs to go and visit Allah and soon and please take lots of his fanatic religious friends with him.

Hope that this is not too harsh for everyone but Tabs is correct. This is a fight for our civilization. We have been in this war for over 20 years and yet a majority of the population does not even know it exists. The Crusades lasted for 200 years and this one may take that long. The only option in their eyes is for us to all give up being a Christian and convert to Islam. Personally I would die fighting for my country, religion, and family before letting anyone try to take over our way of life.

Joe A