Far worse than the NSA

[fastpat]

From the Blog at Lewrockwell.com:

Far Worse Than the NSA
Posted by Lew Rockwell at December 29, 2005 01:32 PM

From CIO Magazine (for Chief Informational Officers) "What's Up at the NSA?"
"Senior Writer Ben Worthen speculates that it is large-scale data mining.

A Reader's comment:
"NSA, CIA, and Their Missions"
Posted: DEC 23, 2005 06:24:17 PM

As an Information Systems Officer in the US Air Force and later as a consultant with a large defense contractor, I worked for and with the NSA and CIA over a period of 15 years. NSA’s real-time and retrospective data mining capabilities are certainly amazing, both for text-based data as well as voice communications.

But, in reality, they have always faced the same problem that many of us face today: Information overload. In those cases where data mining has been successful, it has been targeted on a narrow source of opportunity. Those narrow sources of opportunity are usually identified by human intelligence analysts, first, then IT is brought in to confirm or dismiss the opportunity.

Culturally, NSA has always taken great pride in the fact that their intelligence data collection mission was pointed outward from the citizens of the United States. By law, that is their charter.

It is very disturbing to me, as a former military officer and now private citizen, that the mission of the NSA was unilaterally turned inward by the Executive Branch to encroach upon the mission of the FBI, Secret Service, and other domestic intelligence collection agencies.

At the risk of drawing overly dramatic parallels, one of the watermarks of totalitarian dictatorships is the use of national military forces to spy, intimidate, and enforce the will of the state upon its citizens. Symbolically, it appears that our country recently took a not-so-insignificant step in that direction. Shame on us.

Finally, while it bothers me that the mission of the NSA was twisted in this manner, the culture of the CIA presents a much greater threat to the sovereignty of our country and our standing in the world. The NSA is largely a passive data collection organization.

In contrast, the CIA collects its own data, runs its own paramilitary group, and executes its own foreign policy. It creates foreign relations disasters in other countries that insidiously stoke the fires of its own interventions and self-fulfilling existence. A partial list of its disasters starts early in its history with the Bay of Pigs, followed by those in Vietnam, Cambodia, the Congo, Algeria, Zaire, Iran, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Iraq. This list goes on. It is the most insidious, destructive organization in the world today and if we as a country allow it to continue operating unchecked, I am convinced it will fulfill the root cause of our demise and many of our allies. Our next President must make the dismantling of the CIA a priority.

--Dale Sanders
Vice President CIO
Northwestern Medical Faculty Foundation"
http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/009595.html#more

[Tobra]

So Pat you would recommend the CIA be dismantled ASAP. That seems a bit extreme to me, I guess better to crap the whole thing and start over from scratch. What about in the time between it being dismantled and its replacement being viable?

[Jamie79SC]

Tobra,

What is it about you 'Crazy whacko nuts' that have an immidiate knee jerk reaction to any question about our civil liberties being messed with by the current administration.

As regards the above I (and I would guess Pat) just don't want to see the same sort of shenanigans directed toward US citizens that get directed toward what ever banana republic (or evil empire) the administration doesn't cotton to at the moment.

[chuckr]

I agree with Dale said, he is right. He gets a little vauge at the
last paragraph with the dismanteling idea. That will never
happen. What I think needs to happen, is to combine the
"intellengence" communitys. There has always been a big
power battle between FBI/CIA/NSA. I'm ex Navy and
a Viet Nam vet.

Chuck

[Tobra]

How is it that all the evils of America are linked to the current administration? Clearly, our current President is responsible for the countryright now, but it is just as clear(to a whacko nut job anyway) that this has been going on for some time. I don't believe even the elder Bush was involved in the creation of the CIA, though he did run it for a time.

It is possible to be concerned about civil liberties and national security at the same time, however inconceivable that may sound. It seems a much more reasonable approach to limit the powers of these agencies, or watch them more closely, rather than dismantle a rather important piece of our national security without concern regarding potential adverse consequences, but of course I am a whacko jerking my knees around

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Tobra
So Pat you would recommend the CIA be dismantled ASAP. That seems a bit extreme to me, I guess better to crap the whole thing and start over from scratch. What about in the time between it being dismantled and its replacement being viable?

How about we Americans simply demand a foreign intelligence gathering organization, and nothing more?

The CIA is engaged in much more than that; as the author of the letter stated, and as most Americans know.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by chuckr
I agree with Dale said, he is right. He gets a little vauge at the
last paragraph with the dismanteling idea. That will never
happen. What I think needs to happen, is to combine the
"intellengence" communitys. There has always been a big
power battle between FBI/CIA/NSA. I'm ex Navy and
a Viet Nam vet.

Chuck

Again, what's wrong with limiting all the above to powers expressly granted the executive branch under the Constitution. That would eliminate the FBI and restrict the CIA and NSA to intelligence gathering only.

The FBI has no Constitutional basis to exist; there's no such thing as federal police power.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Tobra
How is it that all the evils of America are linked to the current administration?

You read that in my first post where, exactly? Clinton was a thug when he was president, but he's not president now. Bush ran, in 2000, on a smaller government, no nation building, low taxation platform. So far, he's delivered a tiny sliver of tax reduction on income, but tightened up collection to the point that there's an overall tax increase. He's never attempted to deliver either of the other two.

He needs to be held accountable for that, and for any criminal behaviour.

Clearly, our current President is responsible for the countryright now, but it is just as clear(to a whacko nut job anyway) that this has been going on for some time. I don't believe even the elder Bush was involved in the creation of the CIA, though he did run it for a time.

That's true, but previous criminal behavior on the part of earlier presidents does not excuse criminal behavior for the current thug in the White House.

It is possible to be concerned about civil liberties and national security at the same time, however inconceivable that may sound. It seems a much more reasonable approach to limit the powers of these agencies, or watch them more closely, rather than dismantle a rather important piece of our national security without concern regarding potential adverse consequences, but of course I am a whacko jerking my knees around

What if none of the CIA's past imbroglios' had occured? Blowback from those screwup's would not have occured, and a lot of problems we now face wouldn't exist. The one Egyptian and 19 Arabians that perpetrated the 9?11 event would have had a hard time getting the time of day, much less funding to carry out their plans. These thigns don't happen in a vacuum, and none of them occur because "they" hate "our freedom".

[Rodeo]

This needs repeating:

At the risk of drawing overly dramatic parallels, one of the watermarks of totalitarian dictatorships is the use of national military forces to spy, intimidate, and enforce the will of the state upon its citizens. Symbolically, it appears that our country recently took a not-so-insignificant step in that direction. Shame on us.

[Tobra]

I responded to Jaime's post regarding the current administration.

What if the CIA and FBI never existed? Would we be better off? I would argue that we would not, but how to know? I agree that oversight is needed, but dismantling the FBI and CIA, that does not seem extreme to you?

If you honestly believe that the problems between the West and the Muslim world started with the CIA, well, that is a tough position to defend. This is something that started before either of us were born, and will go on long after I am worm food.

[Jamie79SC]

I strongly suggest that you read a book called "Imperial Hubris" written by the ex spook Michael Scheuer, who was in charge of chasing Al Queda for a number of years and for several administrations. In it he reviews a number of beefs they have with us, more than a few of which have to do with CIA style 'diplomacy'. Facinating reading which ever side of the fence you sit on.

[Halm]

Originally posted by Rodeo
This needs repeating:
At the risk of drawing overly dramatic parallels. . .

Guess he didn't do a very good job of staying low key, now did he?

By any chance have any of you read this year's Pulitzer's Prize winner for non-fiction: Ghost Wars? If so, you would have a much greater appreciation for how screwed up all of our intelligence agencies are, especially the CIA. It is a well documented book that traces the neutering of the CIA back to Jimmy Carter -as well as the rise of radical Islam- and the reluctance all presidents since him to rebuild it. An excellent read. But since it shows both parties in a bad light it will be trashed as total fiction on this BB.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Rodeo
This needs repeating:

At the risk of drawing overly dramatic parallels, one of the watermarks of totalitarian dictatorships is the use of national military forces to spy, intimidate, and enforce the will of the state upon its citizens. Symbolically, it appears that our country recently took a not-so-insignificant step in that direction. Shame on us.

Think about this. The US Army is buying a wheeled combat vehicle, the Stryker, which is similar to those the Russian's hav used to suppress civil dissent. That seemingly innocent fact bears close observation.

Another lesson:
http://www.geocities.com/iraqiambush/slide001.htm

The Bush legacy:

[Mulhollanddose]

Clinton legacy:



Back to the drawing board. Obviously appeasement and tough talk just wasn't enough.

[Mulhollanddose]

What a difference an "illegal" wiretap could have made.

[nostatic]

yes...the ends justifies the means.

oh wait...that's socialist thinking. silly me.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by fastpat
Think about this. The US Army is buying a wheeled combat vehicle, the Stryker, which is similar to those the Russian's hav used to suppress civil dissent. That seemingly innocent fact bears close observation.
...

Tell me you are kidding!

[onewhippedpuppy]

I can't believe anybody is naive enough to believe that we can continue to exist as a society without those in the shadows, doing the things that nobody wants to acknowledge? That economic sanctions or UN resolutions have the same pull as the removal of threats to this country. Fact facts people, the USA didn't become the superpower it is with diplomacy. We are the face of freedom, and I believe to be the best country on this earth, but at times there are things that need done, and people needed to do it. Anyone who believes that we would be the same country today without our various intelligence organizations is a fool.

Also, the CIA isn't at fault for us drawing the ire of much of the Islam community overseas. They hate our society as a whole, all of our ideals, or way of life, our culture. They see it as contrary to their religious system, and feel called by their god to kill us. The CIAs work in Afghanistan during the conflict with the Russians did much to sour the feelings of some individuals, but their hate of us is for far deeper reasons.

I agree that we need to take a serious look at the domestic intelligence gathering, but dismantling our entire intelligence community isn't the answer. That would be the same as our collectively dropping our pants, and waiting for others to have their way with us.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by onewhippedpuppy
I can't believe anybody is naive enough to believe that we can continue to exist as a society without those in the shadows, doing the things that nobody wants to acknowledge?

Yes, we can not only live in society, in America, we can live significantly safer lives if we curtail ALL those that practice such things. Perhaps we need reeducation camps for the CIA, BATF, FBI, and people that think America needs them.

That economic sanctions or UN resolutions have the same pull as the removal of threats to this country.

What threats to America? America faced the Soviet Union without economic sanctions; they imploded and would have sooner if not for Roosevelt, Truman, Johnson, and Reagan.

Fact facts people, the USA didn't become the superpower it is with diplomacy.

Of course not; to achieve that the US government lied for decades on the need for military expenditures wildly beyond any genuine need. Further, the US government, after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1989, continued to justify expenditures as if there was an unknown superpower extant on the planey, ready to attack the continental USA at any moment. In short, they do just what H. L. Mencken warned us they would. Menacing the gullible with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of which are imaginary.

We are the face of freedom,

The US government has become the face of brute force and militarism.

and I believe to be the best country on this earth, but at times there are things that need done, and people needed to do it.

Nationalistic nonsense. The US government is the least "sick man" of world wide governments, at least until 2003. Now that the neo-conservatives are in power, even that benevolent position is waning.

Anyone who believes that we would be the same country today without our various intelligence organizations is a fool.

Only a fool, or worse, a participant, makes such a statement. You do realize that all of your arguments were made by both NSDAP in Germany and by the Bolsheviks in Russia throughout the 20's and 30's, do you not?

Also, the CIA isn't at fault for us drawing the ire of much of the Islam community overseas.

The US government certainly is at fault. They've been meddling in the middle east for nearly 80 years. Are you so daft to think that isn't a factor? That these people might respond when they acquired the means to take the battle out of their country and into ours? Is your grasp of human psyche for insipid as to think that the US government could continue playing on a one-way street?

They hate our society as a whole, all of our ideals, or way of life, our culture.

Perhaps they do, but if the federal government hadn't meddled in their country for 8 decades, that feeling might not reach the level it takes to fire up enough of them to travel here for an attack.

They see it as contrary to their religious system, and feel called by their god to kill us. The CIAs work in Afghanistan during the conflict with the Russians did much to sour the feelings of some individuals, but their hate of us is for far deeper reasons.

Un huh, and just how did that hate propel them across many continent to strike at New York and Washington's center of militarism? If they hated us for our society, it'd have to be a hatred from prior centuries. There's no indication that is factual. The most acute activity of the US government in the middle east is the 60 years since World War Two. Most anti-west arab activity rose with that meddling. That's not a coincidence.

I agree that we need to take a serious look at the domestic intelligence gathering, but dismantling our entire intelligence community isn't the answer. That would be the same as our collectively dropping our pants, and waiting for others to have their way with us.

More pap, get back to me when you've learned more that what Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck spew.

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by fastpat
The US government certainly is at fault. They've been meddling in the middle east for nearly 80 years. Are you so daft to think that isn't a factor?

It is Islam and Islamic suppression, mixed with socialist lies and imported liberal immorality that makes them hate us. No other reason. But good recitation of the leftist apologia for their brutality. Making them rich and training and supplying them with weaponary does not a logical enemy make...Nothing has changed with Islam, ever since Mohammed they have been murderous tyrants, the only thing that differentiates them from the earliest incarnations is money. One would think that the good we have done for Islam, especially that Bush has done for the Islamic oppressed, would change their minds...No one in the history of Islam has done as much for Islam and Muslims than America, and no one ever will.

Your a good little regugitator, Pat, I will give you that.