Are we winning the War on Terror?

Shaun @ Tru6 · 12-31-2005, 08:00 AM

Using any objective measure you'd care to hold up as evidence that we are winning or losing the War on Terror, where are we now 3 years into the War?

EDIT: Please try to keep party bashing to a minimum. Just the facts would be nice. Also, let's not live in the past prior to 9/11. Where are we since then, the official start of the War.

on-ramp · 08:12 AM

2,500 dead US soldiers
26,000+ seriously injured
30,000+ Dead Iraqi people
$500+ Billion Taxpayer spent
Daily losing of our civil liberties

on the bright side, the oil companies have posted record profits.

You be the judge.

lendaddy · 12-31-2005, 08:11 AM

We have created an in infant democracy in Iraq which holds the potential to spread and thus eliminate the hatred, lack of education and misinformation that breeds terrorists from the core of its operations and in the the minds of its young and innocent before they are co-opted. It's a start I guess.

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

On-ramp, your stats refer only to Iraq, where there weren't any terrorists in the first place. Just a mouthy third-world dictator.

Iraq was a place we went and manufactured terrorists.

Afghanistan is still the only quasi-direct effort we've made militarily against a regime that openly harbored terrorists, and that has gone pretty well.

But you'd have to grade the whole thing a "D" since the main architect of the 9/11 attacks has not been captured.

I'm still holding out hope that OBL dies in the Paki quake, or from some other cause. It certainly hasn't been from the lackadasical efforts of Dubya.

aways · 12-31-2005, 08:18 AM

We are, barely, despite the best efforts of the left, which desperately would like to see us lose, so they could blame it on Bush and the Republicans...

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
We have created an in infant democracy in Iraq which holds the potential to spread and thus eliminate the hatred, lack of education and misinformation that breeds terrorists from the core of its operations and in the the minds of its young and innocent before they are co-opted. It's a start I guess.

How incredibly naive.

Iran has a democracy. Is it spreading and eliminating lack of education, etc?

No, democracy isn't some fairy dust solution. Giving people the ability to vote when they are ignorant and fearful results in repressive governments. Iran is the model for where Iraq will go: a fundamentalist Islamic government.

Except that Iraq has the further problem of three ethnic/religious groups that hate each other...

But this is a thread about the war on terror, which has nothing to do with Iraq.

lendaddy · 12-31-2005, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by techweenie
How incredibly naive.

Iran has a democracy. Is it spreading and eliminating lack of education, etc?

No, democracy isn't some fairy dust solution. Giving people the ability to vote when they are ignorant and fearful results in repressive governments. Iran is the model for where Iraq will go: a fundamentalist Islamic government.

Except that Iraq has the further problem of three ethnic/religious groups that hate each other...

Gotta love that liberal optimism that made America great

12-31-2005, 08:26 AM

The glass is half full.

aways · 12-31-2005, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by techweenie

I'm still holding out hope that OBL dies in the Paki quake, or from some other cause. It certainly hasn't been from the lackadasical efforts of Dubya.

Lacadasical efforts of Dubya? Hmm, boy I wake up nights lamenting the fact that we didn't elect a real tough-guy like Al Gore in 2000. I'm sure if we had, by now he would have convinced the UN boys in their powder blue helmets to invade Afghanistan in hoards, track down Usama, and slap him to death with their purses.

lendaddy · 12-31-2005, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by aways
Lacadasical efforts of Dubya? Hmm, boy I wake up nights lamenting the fact that we didn't elect a real tough-guy like Al Gore in 2000. I'm sure if we had, by now he would have convinced the UN boys in their powder blue helmets to invade Afghanistan in hoards, track down Usama, and slap him to death with their purses.

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

LOL.

Except that in that scenario, the U.N. would have eliminated OBL.

So, yes, you've reinforced my statement that Dubya's efforts have been lackadasical.

You probably don't know that today marks the 365th day Dubya has been at the Crawford "ranch" (former pig farm). He's cutting trees and brush. Eliminating terrorist hiding places, one presumes.

12-31-2005, 08:46 AM

U.N. can't find it's ass with both hands.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Where? Where?

Sonic dB · Sonic dB's Garage

The "war on terror" is not winnable. Thats the first misconception that needs to be thrown in the trash.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Oh and BTW, good question Shaun, and the rest of you, thanks for trying to keep it objective...

The War on Terror has been going on for 4.5 years since GW announced it, but the actual war has been on going for far longer. More like since the end of WWII. The US hasn't been seeing much in the way of Terror attacks the way Europe and the rest of the world has, at least up to the Early 90's.

The real problem is trying to measure a negative. Let's agree on some sort of objective measurement, like number of Americans killed on US soil by terrorists. We also should do a second measurement of world wide terror attacks. Maybe we should look at people killed and injured in terrorists attacks. Also number of generally known plots that were subverted by our or other governments.

I would like to make sure that we include as terrorists groups like the ELF, Anti-abortion groups that terrorize abortion clincs and employees, Tim McVeigh type people, etc, not just Islamic Fundamentalists Terrorists.

Who else has suggestions on how to OBJECTIVELY measure the success of the war on terror?

aways · 12-31-2005, 09:33 AM

And yes!, we'd be so much further fown the road to winning the war on terrorisism if these savage brutes had been elected last year...

Usama would be quaking in his cave, i'm sure...

darkbeer · 12-31-2005, 10:24 AM

As long as there is this HUGE divide between the "haves" (the "western world") & the "have not's" (the REST of the world)...there will be "terrorism" ! If you took ALL the "human beings" that EVER lived on this planet, starting back 600 thousand years ago, thru 1960, there are , right now, that many people alive & breathing on this planet....& guess who's pinching out puppies at an ever increasing rate ???? that's right boy scouts, it's "the REST of the world". Something like 50% of the "Islamic world" is people 25 years & younger.......mostly un or undereducated. Imagine, if you can, you've been scratching around in some *****hole country, watching loved ones die, no decent jobs or future life...& you see some pink skinned, fat faced fu*k from Wash. D.C. wagging his finger at you telling you what you should or shouldn't do, or worse yet, as you are starving, you see the lovely Ms. co-dependent Bush giving a tour of the White House Xmas decorations made of fresh fruit....that you would give anything to EAT !!! Meanwhile, "back at the Ranch"....the Corporate world is running amoke over these very people, using & abusing them like corporate cannon fodder, all for the sake of "profits" for all those important "investors". These large "multi-national" corp's don't give a rat's ass @ world peace, human dignity or the average (that's YOU & ME boyscouts) American, they just wan't to grab "their's" while they can before the whole thing unravels. Again: Terrorism is a natural reaction to the excesses of the west, especially the "Corporate West"...we have squandered any & all goodwill we may have had , left over from WWII & the Peace Corps etc. etc. WE, in the "west", are far more to blame for the ignorance & inequality that breads terrorism then are the crackpot gangsters that are using Islam as an excuse to act out their sociopathic fantasies. If those "rest of world" populations were educated & fed & housed, had access to birthcontrol & self-determination, they would NOT be influenced by these bearded maniacs that strap bombs to the bellies of fools, to die for nothing......

When will the "War On Terrorism" be won ???? It will be a LONG TIME !!! & it won't (sorry there Red Staters) be won by bullets & bombs. Not by some John Wayne fantasy senario...It will take the actions we learned from our savior, over 2,000 years ago.... Love Understanding Sharing Caring Thinking ....I know this sounds sorta wacky & it would not make a very good vidio game, but it IS the only way for us, ALL of us, not just the "us" in the "west". Satan is SOOOOOooooooo clever...he's gettin' his work done for him by people convinced they are doing "God's" work....LOL !

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

Greg: well said.

Unthinking people seem to believe "terrorism" is something other than a tactic.

You can't wage war on a tactic.

You can't kill someone because they simply think of "terroristic" tactics. (Although I guess, now, you can invade their country.)

You can't define someone as a "terrorist" until he/she commits a terroristic act.

45% of Iraqis in a British poll support shooting US troops. Does that make 45% of Iraqis terrorists? Or terrorist supporters?

How about a "war on Islamic fundamentalist Jihadists with the means to harm American interests?" Prolly wouldn't play in the red states...

Mulhollanddose · 12-31-2005, 12:25 PM

Stroke of phenomenal brilliance--invade Iraq and create a terrorist sucking vacuum that concentrates the multi-headed Islamofascist Hydra into one compact kill zone...Simultaneously liberating 50,000,000 oppressed, setting up an experimental democracy (second best option after turning the place to glass) dividing the ME right down the middle, setting up a strategic alliance (whether they like it or not), and finally sending a message to the world and other would-be contenders that you best not #$%^ with us!

Absolute genius. We couldn't have expected a better course.

aways · 12-31-2005, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by darkbeer
As long as there is this HUGE divide between the "haves" (the "western world") & the "have not's" (the REST of the world)...there will be "terrorism" ! If you took ALL the "human beings" that EVER lived on this planet, starting back 600 thousand years ago, thru 1960, there are , right now, that many people alive & breathing on this planet....& guess who's pinching out puppies at an ever increasing rate ???? that's right boy scouts, it's "the REST of the world". Something like 50% of the "Islamic world" is people 25 years & younger.......mostly un or undereducated. Imagine, if you can, you've been scratching around in some *****hole country, watching loved ones die, no decent jobs or future life...& you see some pink skinned, fat faced fu*k from Wash. D.C. wagging his finger at you telling you what you should or shouldn't do, or worse yet, as you are starving, you see the lovely Ms. co-dependent Bush giving a tour of the White House Xmas decorations made of fresh fruit....that you would give anything to EAT !!! Meanwhile, "back at the Ranch"....the Corporate world is running amoke over these very people, using & abusing them like corporate cannon fodder, all for the sake of "profits" for all those important "investors". These large "multi-national" corp's don't give a rat's ass @ world peace, human dignity or the average (that's YOU & ME boyscouts) American, they just wan't to grab "their's" while they can before the whole thing unravels. Again: Terrorism is a natural reaction to the excesses of the west, especially the "Corporate West"...we have squandered any & all goodwill we may have had , left over from WWII & the Peace Corps etc. etc. WE, in the "west", are far more to blame for the ignorance & inequality that breads terrorism then are the crackpot gangsters that are using Islam as an excuse to act out their sociopathic fantasies. If those "rest of world" populations were educated & fed & housed, had access to birthcontrol & self-determination, they would NOT be influenced by these bearded maniacs that strap bombs to the bellies of fools, to die for nothing......

When will the "War On Terrorism" be won ???? It will be a LONG TIME !!! & it won't (sorry there Red Staters) be won by bullets & bombs. Not by some John Wayne fantasy senario...It will take the actions we learned from our savior, over 2,000 years ago.... Love Understanding Sharing Caring Thinking ....I know this sounds sorta wacky & it would not make a very good vidio game, but it IS the only way for us, ALL of us, not just the "us" in the "west". Satan is SOOOOOooooooo clever...he's gettin' his work done for him by people convinced they are doing "God's" work....LOL !

Ah, yea. I see. Usama, and his billionaire family, represent some of those "have not's".

An the virulent racism against jews practiced by the Saudi royal family is another example of the "have not's" in action... When are the leftists going to stop looking at everything in terms of economics. It's about cultural values.