Is ATF trying to entrap me here?

[Rick Lee]

Guys, I can't post this on SIGforum for fear of offending this guy, if he's for real. But I'm little worried (actually, I'm not worried, since I'm not breaking the law) the ATF is trying to bait me into an illegal sale. No gun owner can be this naive. Below is our email exchange on a bicentennial Ruger Single Six I listed for sale. Start at the bottom and read up. Comments?


-----Forwarded Message-----
From: Richard
Sent: Jan 18, 2006 2:08 PM
To: John
Subject: RE: .22 stainless Ruger

I can't just drop a gun in the mail to you. I can only send via FedEx or UPS to an FFL (federal firearms license) dealer, from which I'd need a fax of their license. I'm in Virginia. I'd have to check on FedEx rates to AK. Below is a list of FFL's.

http://www.ordnanceoutsellers.com/FFLFILE.htm

Looks like this list only has one in AK, but there must be many more. If you have a gun store in your town, they can do the transfer for you and I'd ship to them. They usually charge between $25-$40 for it. Attached is a photo of my P7. You can see the squeeze-cocking lever on the front of the grip.

Cheers,
Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: John
Sent: Jan 18, 2006 2:00 PM
To: Richard
Subject: RE: .22 stainless Ruger

Where is VA and what is an FFL?

I live in AK (Alaska) and don’t have a Federal Firearm License (?).

So we’ll have to talk shipping.

How can you squeeze-cock a gun? (pistol? Rifle?)

John



-----Original Message-----
From: Richard
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:51 AM
To: John
Subject: RE: .22 stainless Ruger

Ok. Just called Dad and he said $450 is fine with him. Before we talk shipping, any chance you live in VA? Are you an FFL? A P7 is H&K's squeeze-cocking auto. They're out of production and folks are scooping them up.

Thanks,
Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: John
Sent: Jan 18, 2006 1:29 PM
To: Richard
Subject: RE: .22 stainless Ruger

1500 is a bit steep; it would be interesting to do the apples/apples thing on it (exactly the same gun?).

Anyway, I’d go $450 for it. And sorry I don’t have a P7 (not really sure what a P7 is).

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:23 AM
To: John
Subject: Re: .22 stainless Ruger


Yes, it's for sale, but I don't know a fair price. In my research I've seen them from $325 on up to $1500. I was hoping to use it for a trade on a P7, but couldn't hold back and bought a P7 last night. I'm open to offers.

Thanks,
Richard


-----Original Message-----
From: John
Sent: Jan 18, 2006 1:07 PM
To:
Subject: .22 stainless Ruger

My nephew sent me a sigarms site with your 22 on it. I have a blue one (“Liberty Model”) and a stainless would make a pair.

How much? Is it still for sale?

Let me know. I want this one.

Thanks

[legion]

That, or Sarah Brady is looking for a new poster child to pass a new law...

[dhoward]

What's to worry about?
You already told him what needs to be done.
ATF or simpleton?
Who knows, but it doesn't matter as long as you're not breaking any laws. Unless someone has you wiretapped...
Anyway, the ATF is far too busy persecuting the hobby rocketry clubs...

[Eric 951]

Where is VA? What is an FFL?

I would move along. ATF or no, I wouldn't want to deal with someone like this.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Don't even bother with him. Not worth the effort or heartburn.

Or the jail time.

[singpilot]

Why is the ATF going after the model rocket clubs?

[Rick Lee]

Well, he says his local gun shop is faxing me their FFL tonight, so we'll see.

[BGCarrera32]

I wouldn't bother with it either. Call me naive, but could you just talk to someone within the ATF about what the exact rules are for selling this sort of thing? (In other words just be honest).

I dunno, never sold a gun, maybe that's a pipedream.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by singpilot
Why is the ATF going after the model rocket clubs?

ATF classification of motors as explosive rather than combustable. Lawsuit has been goin on for a few years now. Affecting mostly mid to high power users....
http://www.tripoli.org/documents/batfe/batfe.shtml

[singpilot]

Thanks, used to fool around with those when I was a kid. Would not have thought our government was so concerned about that.

Personally, I thought Hillary's comments the other day were much more dangerous and explosive.

[CRH911S]

A knowledgeable gun person would know certain facts relative to the sale and transportaion of rifles and hand guns.

Alaska has more than one FFL because I know two personally. Would I negotiate a sale with this person? Definitely not! Contact Eddie Grasser, he's the NRA's regional guy in Alaska. He can get you up to date on our laws.

Clint

[tabs]

I recently have had a Ruger MK 1 22 LR Auto, Bull Barrel for sale...an older guy in NJ called and said he buy it...

I told him I needed a check and copy of FFL , he agrees...An hour later he calls me up having forgotten he called me earlier. I regive him my address etc as to where he can send a check.

A few days later a Personal Check arives and I deposit it and wait for it to clear. Meanwhile the FFL arrives..now this is where it gets really interesting.

It is a DOCTORED FFL...

1. The expiration date was changed to 2009
2. The address of the Licensee has been changed to my buyers address by using a envelope stickem address and copying the orginal FFL with that on there
3. The Business Address has been changed with the method described above
4. My buyer has whited out the orginal licensee signature and substituted his own
5. It is a Class 7 or Manufacturing FFL.

I'm not that stupid thank you nor do I want to sell a gun that bad especially a $250 gun. I am sending a check back to him as soon as I am sure the check he sent me has cleared.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Good advice - I'd ask the NRA about it. Personally I've only ever bought my guns from a brick&mortar dealer. Too much weird crap out there to worry about getting my door kicked in by some overzealous jarhead ATF cop 'cause my plinker has the wrong paperwork or some similar BS. . .

[jyl]

But since you're worried, common-sense suggests that when he sends you the copy of his local gun shop's FFL, you might contact that gun shop and verify it, and also check the FFL online with the ATF:

https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

Seems like you're being careful to stay legal, and are documenting that in your emails. Keep doing that. Keep copies of your emails and the ATF/FFL check result.

Trust your instincts and if something smells bad, just drop it.

[tabs]

I've always had GOOD LUCK in dealing with the BATF...

[Rick Lee]

Actually, I may have jumped the gun here. He's already had his gun store fax me their FFL and it matches their info on the Internet. I can't imagine why anyone would bother with a bicentennial commorative single shot .22 for anything other than collecting. Pretty sure he's legit, just a little naive. I'll be paying my local FFL a visit this week to pick up the H&K P7 I just bought online last night, so I'll run it by him too.

[FrayAdjacent911]

Rick, you need more than a fax of someone's FFL. Faxes can be forged. You need to request an INK SIGNED COPY of the dealers FFL, signed in something other than black ink (blue or red works fine).

C
Y
A

Do not slip up or accept anything less... it's YOUR butt that could be going to jail if you do not cover it appropriately.

[Rick Lee]

Matt, faxed FFL's were made legal very recently. This one looks pretty good and it's got the same address as the gun store's address in Yahoo Yellow Pages. I will call to confirm with them. I've recently bought three guns where my local FFL faxed his license in and it was fine.

[competentone]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
Matt, faxed FFL's were made legal very recently. This one looks pretty good and it's got the same address as the gun store's address in Yahoo Yellow Pages. I will call to confirm with them. I've recently bought three guns where my local FFL faxed his license in and it was fine.

Yes, the fax is fine. There really is no need to confirm by calling the receiving dealer, just verify that the address matches with the ATF's records (as posted above): https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

You might want to call to be sure the receiving FFL is OK with receiving a firearm from an individual. It's perfectly legal for them to receive firearms from individuals, but some FFL's don't like to since it increases the chances of them handling a stolen firearm. If that's the case, you just have to transfer the gun to your local FFL and have him ship it. It might cost you a few dollars (the FFL's fee), but since the FFL can ship by U.S. Mail, the cost of shipping should be less than if you ship it.

As for your concerns that this might be some sort of ATF sting; it doesn't sound like it. It sounds like someone just isn't familiar with the laws regarding shipping/selling firearms interstate. I actually prefer the experience you're having; it can be more frustrating dealing with people who think the laws are more restrictive than they actually are! The best transaction is when both parties understand the laws accurately.

I still think you're making a mistake though, I predict that the day will come when you say to yourself, "I should not have sold that Ruger..."

[Rick Lee]

Well, the FFL wrote the buyer's name on their fax, so they know the guy. Still, I'll call before shipping. When I was a kid, I really loved the Ruger. But loading a single shot, single action revolver is like living in slow motion for me now. My S&W Inspector Callahan Special is really the only revolver I care for now. And my dad would want me to pay him if I kept the Ruger. Not worth it to me, since I'm still deluding him into thinking I'm gonna pay him for the .44 mag. - ha ha.