Google refuses to hand over search data to U.S.

[slakjaw]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060120/ap_on_hi_te/google_records_16


By MICHAEL LIEDTKE, AP Business Writer
Fri Jan 20, 5:47 AM ET
SAN FRANCISCO - Google Inc. is rebuffing the Bush administration's demand for a peek at what millions of people have been looking up on the Internet's leading search engine — a request that underscores the potential for online databases to become tools for government surveillance.

Mountain View-based Google has refused to comply with a White House subpoena first issued last summer, prompting U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales this week to ask a federal judge in San Jose for an order to hand over the requested records.

The government wants a list all requests entered into Google's search engine during an unspecified single week — a breakdown that could conceivably span tens of millions of queries. In addition, it seeks 1 million randomly selected Web addresses from various Google databases.

In court papers that the San Jose Mercury News reported on after seeing them Wednesday, the Bush administration depicts the information as vital in its effort to restore online child protection laws that have been struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Yahoo Inc. (Nasdaq:YHOO - news), which runs the Internet's second-most used search engine behind Google, confirmed Thursday that it had complied with a similar government subpoena.

Although the government says it isn't seeking any data that ties personal information to search requests, the subpoena still raises serious privacy concerns, experts said. Those worries have been magnified by recent revelations that the White House authorized eavesdropping on civilian communications after the Sept. 11 attacks without obtaining court approval.

"Search engines now play such an important part in our daily lives that many people probably contact Google more often than they do their own mother," said Thomas Burke, a San Francisco attorney who has handled several prominent cases involving privacy issues.

"Just as most people would be upset if the government wanted to know how much you called your mother and what you talked about, they should be upset about this, too."

The content of search request sometimes contain information about the person making the query.

For instance, it's not unusual for search requests to include names, medical profiles or Social Security information, said Pam Dixon, executive director for the World Privacy Forum.

"This is exactly the kind of thing we have been worrying about with search engines for some time," Dixon said. "Google should be commended for fighting this."

Every other search engine served similar subpoenas by the Bush administration has complied so far, according to court documents. The cooperating search engines weren't identified.

Sunnyvale, Calif.-based Yahoo stressed that it didn't reveal any personal information. "We are rigorous defenders of our users' privacy," Yahoo spokeswoman Mary Osako said Thursday. "In our opinion, this is not a privacy issue."

Microsoft Corp. MSN, the No. 3 search engine, declined to say whether it even received a similar subpoena. "MSN works closely with law enforcement officials worldwide to assist them when requested," the company said in a statement.

As the Internet's dominant search engine, Google has built up a valuable storehouse of information that "makes it a very attractive target for law enforcement," said Chris Hoofnagle, senior counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information Center.

The Department of Justice argues that Google's cooperation is essential in its effort to simulate how people navigate the Web.

In a separate case in Pennsylvania, the Bush administration is trying to prove that Internet filters don't do an adequate job of preventing children from accessing online pornography and other objectionable destinations.

Obtaining the subpoenaed information from Google "would assist the government in its efforts to understand the behavior of current Web users, (and) to estimate how often Web users encounter harmful-to-minors material in the course of their searches," the Justice Department wrote in a brief filed Wednesday

Google — whose motto when it went public in 2004 was "do no evil" — contends that submitting to the subpoena would represent a betrayal to its users, even if all personal information is stripped from the search terms sought by the government.

"Google's acceding to the request would suggest that it is willing to reveal information about those who use its services. This is not a perception that Google can accept," company attorney Ashok Ramani wrote in a letter included in the government's filing.

Complying with the subpoena also wound threaten to expose some of Google's "crown-jewel trade secrets," Ramani wrote. Google is particularly concerned that the information could be used to deduce the size of its index and how many computers it uses to crunch the requests.

"This information would be highly valuable to competitors or miscreants seeking to harm Google's business," Ramani wrote.

Dixon is hoping Google's battle with the government reminds people to be careful how they interact with search engines.

"When you are looking at that blank search box, you should remember that what you fill can come back to haunt you unless you take precautions," she said.


************************************************


Once again,

Where does it end? This is BS.... The Govment is taking this crap way too far anymore. I am surprised and disturbed that no one is talking about this.

If you are a parent, and you are worried about your children seeing a nude body online. How do you feel about the Bush administration wanting to “help”? Why cant parents put the PC in a room where they can watch over the kids if they are that worried? There are a ton of things that worried parents could do.

If the administration wants to go after kiddy porn, why cant they just do a Google search and track down the servers and stuff that way. What they are trying to do is completely wrong.

I am not a parent yet. But when I am, I do not want the White House helping me raise my kids.

The Internet is the last free press in this country. I think we can agree on that no matter what your political mindset is.

I thought the Republicans were the party of less government. WTF happened?

[Superman]

Go, Google!

Hey Dubya, if you want me then come and get me. PM me and I'll send you my contact information. America's Google searches are none of your fukking business.

Where's that pic of the field mouse flipping off the eagle?

[Nathans_Dad]

Let's be clear here folks. The subpeona was for a random sampling of sites and anonymous searches. The gubmint doesn't care what Superman is searching for on Google. They simply want to show how easy it is for children to get directed to porn sites through an internet search.

The objection by Google is on the grounds that it might disclose trade secrets. The objection by the civil rights group is that say I search for someones name on Google. That name might come up in the search string. Now say I search for that name plus "kiddie porn", that would also come up in the data mine.

The Gubmint isn't looking for Slakjaw's google search records, it is a random and anonymous sample. And the same subpeona went out to Yahoo, MSN, etc. A subpeona issued by a court of law, by the way.

[Jims5543]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Let's be clear here folks. The subpeona was for a random sampling of sites and anonymous searches. The gubmint doesn't care what Superman is searching for on Google. They simply want to show how easy it is for children to get directed to porn sites through an internet search.

I thought part of being a parent is monitoring your children.

If my son found porn online it would not be the end of the world for me. I wopuld prefer him to want to look at naked women over looking for people being blown up and killed.

My son has asked many times for a computer in his room w/ internet access. To this day he has been refused. There is one computer in our home and he is welcome to use it anytime he wants. My wife and I chech in on him often to make sure he is behaving.

I do not need the government to parent my son for me.

[Jims5543]

BTW- Google is going to become HUGE in the upcoming years. This might be a first step in the government knocking them down a notch or two and making sure they know who really is in charge.

[slakjaw]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Let's be clear here folks. The subpeona was for a random sampling of sites and anonymous searches. The gubmint doesn't care what Superman is searching for on Google. They simply want to show how easy it is for children to get directed to porn sites through an internet search.

The objection by Google is on the grounds that it might disclose trade secrets. The objection by the civil rights group is that say I search for someones name on Google. That name might come up in the search string. Now say I search for that name plus "kiddie porn", that would also come up in the data mine.

The Gubmint isn't looking for Slakjaw's google search records, it is a random and anonymous sample. And the same subpeona went out to Yahoo, MSN, etc. A subpeona issued by a court of law, by the way.

This does NOT make it OK.....

[RickM]

Originally posted by slakjaw
This does NOT make it OK.....

...but it's ok that every internet service you sign up for/ or buy from sells aggregate consumer data? With your info included.

The goverment is looking to crack down on kiddie porn. So, while we should be monitoring our kids we should support an effort to prosecute those who exploite them.

[rcecale]

Originally posted by Jim Cesiro
I thought part of being a parent is monitoring your children.

If my son found porn online it would not be the end of the world for me. I wopuld prefer him to want to look at naked women over looking for people being blown up and killed.

My son has asked many times for a computer in his room w/ internet access. To this day he has been refused. There is one computer in our home and he is welcome to use it anytime he wants. My wife and I chech in on him often to make sure he is behaving.

I do not need the government to parent my son for me.

C'mon, Jim, don't you know? "It Takes A Village!"

Actually, I agree with you. Parents do need to be taking an active roll in the upbringing of their children. Unfortunately, too many people expect our government to do our parenting for us.

Kids are going to be kids. It is the nature of the beast to push the envelope, to see what they can get away with. Some kids push harder than others. doesn't make them 'bad', necessarily, they just need a little more parenting than others.

Parents just need to be involved.

Randy

[slakjaw]

Originally posted by RickM
...but it's ok that every internet service you sign up for/ or buy from sells aggregate consumer data? With your info included.

The goverment is looking to crack down on kiddie porn. So, while we should be monitoring our kids we should support an effort to prosecute those who exploite them.

Yeah,

Then the government should search Google for kiddy porn. Track down the servers the crap is on and prosecute.

"but it's ok that every internet service you sign up for/ or buy from sells aggregate consumer data? With your info included.
"

NO and I dont think Google does this with it's search info.

[RickM]

Originally posted by slakjaw
Yeah,


NO and I dont think Google does this with it's search info.

Wake up. 90% of the Email services, businesses and websites collect info on your web usage, purchases, searches.....whatever. The level of detail is what's in question and that's where there are no standards.

[Nathans_Dad]

I agree that parents are the primary caretakers of their children and should certainly control what they view on the internet.

However, as stated above, this subpeona is in defense of a child pornography law that is being challenged by the ACLU. I don't have a problem with them getting a random google search if it keeps kids out of the porn industry.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Let's be clear here folks. The subpeona was for a random sampling of sites and anonymous searches. The gubmint doesn't care what Superman is searching for on Google. They simply want to show how easy it is for children to get directed to porn sites through an internet search.

If they "simply want to show how easy it is", then why don't they sit down in front of a computer and do a search? *Demonstrate* how easy it is. It seems that would make their case in a much more obvious way - if that's all they are "simply" trying to do.

Asking to see these records reeks of something more sinister in my book.

Mike

[Jim Richards]

The pendulum has swung from the ultra-liberal 70's to the fascist 2000's. Scary times. When do we start the random mandatory urine samples for all Americans?

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Let's be clear here folks. The subpeona was for a random sampling of sites and anonymous searches. The gubmint doesn't care what Superman is searching for on Google. They simply want to show how easy it is for children to get directed to porn sites through an internet search.

Right, the US government doesn't want to establish a precedent of being able to demand a search of Google records.

That's right up there with the checks in the mail and I'll only put the head in.

[slakjaw]

Originally posted by RickM
Wake up. 90% of the Email services, businesses and websites collect info on your web usage, purchases, searches.....whatever. The level of detail is what's in question and that's where there are no standards.

90% of the Email services, businesses and websites collect info.
You forgot to say "plus the government"

I do not like having one of those value cards that you get at the supermarket. They track your purchases and what not. The big difference here is that they track purchases for advertising information. I still do not like having my purchases tracked. But I draw the line when the stuff starts coming into my home.

When the supermarkets start selling things like IE: Gillette has been caught hiding tiny RFID surveillance chips in the packaging of its shaving products. These tiny, high tech spy tags are being used to **trigger photo taking of unsuspecting customers!**

Anyway, we are getting off topic now.

I think you are wrong with you 90% statement.

I will agree to disagree with you.

[rcecale]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
I don't have a problem with them getting a random google search if it keeps kids out of the porn industry.

Nor do I. But then again, I don't have a problem with the wire-tapping for terrorists either.

Funny thing is, I'm just as free as I was yesterday, last year, 10 years ago... Is this a great country, or what???

Randy

[Nathans_Dad]

Wonder if Pelican uses cookies???

[rcecale]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Wonder if Pelican uses cookies???

I feel so violated!!!

Randy

[aways]

This is rich.. I wonder why all of you who seem so protective of "parent's responsibility and parent's rights" and no government role when it comes to the internet, have NO problem whatsoever when the government through our public school system wants to mandate sex ed in elementary schools, celebrate the gay/lesbian lifestyle, and point girls to abortion centers, all without parental notification. When it comes to these issues you want lots of government action, and NO parental role. How's that?

[RickM]

Originally posted by slakjaw
90% of the Email services, businesses and websites collect info.
You forgot to say "plus the government"

I do not like having one of those value cards that you get at the supermarket. They track your purchases and what not. The big difference here is that they track purchases for advertising information. I still do not like having my purchases tracked. But I draw the line when the stuff starts coming into my home.


I think you are wrong with you 90% statement.

I will agree to disagree with you.

The Supermarket has your name, address, phone and buying patterns. Just like with your web existence how do you know who they sell the collected info to?

If you live a typical life in the US today your info is collected, manipulated and sold by nearly ever business. The DMV, banks, insurance companies, Credit cards have been doing this for many years....talk about sensitive info. Big brother has been in our lives for a long time.

...and what fun would it be if we all agreed.