California economy... The BIG lie.

[Moses]

Yesterday, I was discussing the Californias economy and our dependence on immigrant workers to keep our economy afloat because, as we all know, California leads the nation in agricultural production and it is the kingpin of our economy.

Guess what? I got slammed.

My friend gently corrected me with the following points;

1) Agriculture is a minor player in California. It is eclipsed by tech production, service industry, financial services and a host of other industries.

http://www.tradeport.org/news/gross_state_product.html

2) California agriculture is heavily subsidized. Farms use 85% of our water and pay less than 10% of the bill through ancient land/water use agreements. Without subsidies and government support, California agriculture can not compete in a free market.

3) When farmland is converted to housing, a net savings in water usage is observed and a net increase in tax revenue. (Yikes!)

My friend is of the opinion that the California economy would be healthier if we outsourced more food production to Mexico. I am still trying to confirm the numbers, but my friend believes illegal immigrant labor costs the state far more in public services than is gained by their contribution to the state economy.

All of this information is in direct opposition to opinions I have held and expressed in the past. Any thoughts?

[singpilot]

Buy your friend a drink. He's right.

Go stand in line at the passport office (Non-english speaking mothers getting papers for their citizen infants). Or the DMV(Drivers' licenses with no valid ID). Or the Food4Less (WIC only checkout lines, 5 deep). Drive down Sherman Way in the valley (pretend you are not in Tijuana). Here in Alta California, things are going to you know where in a handbasket.

[slakjaw]

my friend believes illegal immigrant labor costs the state far more in public services than is gained by their contribution to the state economy.


I don't know about that...

The people who hire them are saveing money, makeing bigger profits, and paying taxes on those higher profits. Out of the money given to the illegal's how much is spent on taxed items?

[slakjaw]

Originally posted by singpilot
Buy your friend a drink. He's right.

Go stand in line at the passport office (Non-english speaking mothers getting papers for their citizen infants). Or the DMV(Drivers' licenses with no valid ID). Or the Food4Less (WIC only checkout lines, 5 deep). Drive down Sherman Way in the valley (pretend you are not in Tijuana). Here in Alta California, things are going to you know where in a handbasket.

Here in Alta California, things are going to you know where in a handbasket.

Why? I do not understand where that comment comes from??

We have checkout lines here too.

[pbs911]

Moses, can't you say the same thing for farming on a national level? I don't think the problems are solely issolated in CA.

[Moses]

Originally posted by pbs911
Moses, can't you say the same thing for farming on a national level? I don't think the problems are solely issolated in CA.

Could be. In California, the problem is the massive subsidies. All we hear is the "water conservation" mantra, yet agriculture consumes 85% of this resource and they get it nearly for free! They are also major polluters, contributing selenium, pesticides and other crap to our environment.

[MichiganMat]

Sure, we could kick all the farmers out of the central valley...

but who else would want to live there?

[Moses]

Originally posted by MichiganMat
Sure, we could kick all the farmers out of the central valley...

but who else would want to live there?

No need to kick 'em out. Just make them pay market rates for water and see what happens.

[Hugh R]

If you start with the assumption that everyone should pay "their fair share" which to me means that you take out of the system roughly what you pay in then consider this.

The state pays right at $6,700 per student in K-12. If you have two kids, then you should be paying in taxes about $13,400 to educate your kids. How much property, income, gas and sales taxes does an illegal worker on a farm pay? Do you think its anywhere near that much.

As we continue to attract low skilled, low educated people, we debase our system further every year.

[singpilot]

Originally posted by slakjaw
Here in Alta California, things are going to you know where in a handbasket.

Why? I do not understand where that comment comes from??

We have checkout lines here too.

Slak;

It's not the checkout lines that are the problem. It's the increasing demand for public services supported solely by taxes by those that do not pay taxes. We are caught in this no-mans' land of not punishing those that come here illegally, but protecting and promoting the system that makes it financially viable to stay here once here.

The Government of Mexico is now distributing maps of Arizona showing safe routes with water stops and food handouts to people waiting to cross the borders illegally.

Sorry. Somethings wrong with all of this, and it's not getting better, it's getting worse.

[Nathans_Dad]

Heard on NPR in the last few days that Vicente Fox is fit to be tied over the idea of building a fence on the border. He likened a border fence to the Berlin Wall and vowed any such fence would fall.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-01-25T031212Z_01_N24223744_RTRUKOC_0_UK-MEXICO-USA.xml

I can't figure out how our country actually plugging our borders and controlling who enters and exits our country can be seen as so evil by others?

[singpilot]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
I can't figure out how our country actually plugging our borders and controlling who enters and exits our country can be seen as so evil by others?

This country is the answer to his country's social ills. All of his social load could be transferred to our social load.

We have no hope of ever sealing our borders as long as this farce continues.

[Nathans_Dad]

Very true, Sing. The problem of immigration from Mexico will stop when the Mexican standard of living more approaches ours. When or if that will ever happen is anyone's guess. Notice how we don't have a huge problem with illegal Canadian immigration...

Here's a wacky thought. How about we just annex Mexico. Break it up into about 10 new states and just suck it up for 30 or 40 years while we bring it up to snuff...lots of good farmland down there.

[red-beard]

Originally posted by singpilot
This country is the answer to his country's social ills. All of his social load could be transferred to our social load.

We have no hope of ever sealing our borders as long as this farce continues.

If Mexico could not send it's workers north, it would be double hit.

#1. No easy exit for workers it can't employ

#2. Loss of the money these people send to Mexico, one of the biggest parts of thier economy.

It doesn't surprise me that they are creating maps, etc.

[Moses]

Forgetting immigration for a minute, why do we give farmers free water? We are damming rivers, polluting the state and creating an artificial shortage of a precious resource. If it makes no economic sense to grow tomatoes in California with a free market, STOP GROWING TOMATOES!

[Rikao4]

it's because they believe we "owe" it to them. They have the 'right' to farm,never mind that they do it badly with your (our) money.
Rika

[red-beard]

Moses,

California = Hot Furnace. It is a desert for g0d's sake (sorry Moses). You want a tradegy that would make New Orleans seem like a walk in the park? Cut the water off to California.

Agriculture has been subsidised since the New Deal. The problem is, once you start a govt program, killing it becomes a third rail. Why haven't we fixed our tax situation? No once wants to lose thier special excemption.

[red-beard]

Oh, and Sunkist is a front for a very large corp...I was offered a job working for one of the nut groups...

[motion]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Very true, Sing. The problem of immigration from Mexico will stop when the Mexican standard of living more approaches ours. When or if that will ever happen is anyone's guess. Notice how we don't have a huge problem with illegal Canadian immigration...

Here's a wacky thought. How about we just annex Mexico. Break it up into about 10 new states and just suck it up for 30 or 40 years while we bring it up to snuff...lots of good farmland down there.

I don't get it... I was down in Guadalajara last spring. It's like a huge city right out of the US. BMW and Mercedes dealerships, downtown with very nice high-rises. Everyone's driving 5 years or newer cars. More $50,000 Ford F350s than I see here in the States, highly-developed infrastructure, etc. Nothing like you see in the filthy border towns like TJ and Jaurez. I was in Mex for 10 days and hotel bills were much higher than you would encounter in the US. In short, it would seem that the standard of living in Mexico has improved dramatically since NAFTA.

But, we continue to have an influx of laborers. Me thinks it is due to overpopulation in the northern portion of the country in the border towns. I think population control (access to BC) would be very effective in reducing the numbers, or possibly even an increase in US manuf on that side of the border. I dunno... just my 0.02. It is interesting to see the increasing influence even in the most affluent areas of SoCal.

[jyl]

There's clearly a huge demand for Mexican workers, because Americans just won't do some kinds of work. That's reality. We need to make that reality into a positive, not a negative.

I'd like to see us bring the Mexican laborer market from the underground US economy into the legal US economy. Instead of coming here illegally, working clandestinely, living in the shadows without identification, and not generating payroll or income taxes, Mexican laborers could come here legally with permits, work openly, and generate tax revenue.

The number of permits would be controlled, not a carte blanche. Penalties for entering without permits or failing to pay income tax should be severe (lengthy imprisonment, not just deportation to try again). Penalties for employing unpermitted aliens or failing to pay payroll tax/withhold income tax should be massive (prison terms for management, huge financial penalties or shut-down orders for companies). As a "carrot", Mexican workers who prove themselves after, say, 10 or 15 years - work regularly, don't get in trouble with the law, generate enough tax revenue, learn English, get educated, and so on - would get green cards and eventually the chance of citizenship.

Immigration keeps the population young and growing. Countries with young and growing populations have higher economic growth than countries with old and stagnant populations. The US needs to avoid becoming like Europe and Japan (and, before long, China), with a rapidly-aging and zero-growth population and thus too many retirees per active worker.