Truth about CCW - Video

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by fastpat
The real start of it was Florida's passage of the first modern CCW law in 1987. Interestingly, Florida is keeping detailed records of any law violations committed by CCW holders to get a database of genuine experience. No state had really looked into what broad spectrum carrying of concealed weapons meant prior to 1987.

Based on Florida's real experience, other states enacted similar legislation, now up to nearly 40 or so I think. Of course, Vermont remains the only state in full compliance with the Second Amendment, anyone can carry concealed for lawful purposes, resident or not, without a permit or training of any kind. Vermont, naturally, is either the lowest or in the lowest three, in violent criminal activity in America despite its' close proximity to New York.

The huge amount of data accumulated by states with culturally diverse populations with modern CCW laws on the books should have knocked the wind out of the sails of any opponents of concealed carry legislation long ago. That has not happened at all. The fascist Handgun Control Inc., now the Brady Center, ignores all such information in their unquenched passion to disarm America by any means possible. No lie is too big or too wacky for their propaganda machine.

Pat,

Finally we find a subject we agree on! You are spot on above!

Course friggin Sarah Brady breaks the firearms laws whenever she wishes, but wants to take all arms our of our hands... They can go to hell, and fastest way possible.

Joe A

[pbs911]

Originally posted by jyl
. . . concealed carry means criminals don't know which potential victim is armed. The old man, or small woman, could be packing a .357. This acts as a broader deterrent to crime. With open carry, the criminals know who is armed and who is not. Since the 99% of the population that is not armed can now be safely victimized, the deterrent effect disappears.

This statement is apparently more true that it may appear. I completed the CCW course for both my Utah and Florida permit a couple weeks ago. (Applicable to me since I will be in Florida very soon.) At 43 years of age, I was the youngest person in the class of approximatly 100 students. Also included were aged ladies and dissabled persons. My class mates appeared to be from every economic group. Plain and simple, these people are law abiding citizens who refuse to be victims.

It will be a good feeling to drive across the California state line, stop the vehicle, and freely exercise my 2nd Amendment right by straping on my 1911.

[Rick Lee]

"It will be a good feeling to drive across the California state line, stop the vehicle, and freely exercise my 2nd Amendment right by straping on my 1911."

I did exactly this a few weeks ago. I checked my SIG P220 with my luggage, flew to San Diego and had to keep it locked and unloaded until I crossed into AZ. Then it came up and went into my holster and stuck in my rental car's cupholder. My VA permit is not yet recognized in AZ, so I had to keep it visible. But I carried concealed in NM and TX after I left AZ.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by pbs911
This statement is apparently more true that it may appear. I completed the CCW course for both my Utah and Florida permit a couple weeks ago. (Applicable to me since I will be in Florida very soon.) At 43 years of age, I was the youngest person in the class of approximatly 100 students. Also included were aged ladies and dissabled persons. My class mates appeared to be from every economic group. Plain and simple, these people are law abiding citizens who refuse to be victims.

It will be a good feeling to drive across the California state line, stop the vehicle, and freely exercise my 2nd Amendment right by straping on my 1911.

100% correct! Its high time that we all refuse to be victims.

Your 2nd admendment right to arms should be excercised at every chance. A 1911 on the side of every law abiding citizen who wants one should be allowed IMHO.

[red-beard]

The 2nd Amendment does not give you the right to keep and bear arms. The right is inherent. The 2nd amendment prohibits the government from restricting your right to keep and bear arms. Big difference.

But I whole heartedly agree with what you are saying!!!

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
100% correct! Its high time that we all refuse to be victims.

Your 2nd admendment right to arms should be excercised at every chance. A 1911 on the side of every law abiding citizen who wants one should be allowed IMHO.

It might be appropriate to quote a little L. Neil Smith,

The Atlanta Declaration by L. Neil Smith
lneil@lneilsmith.org

Future of Freedom Conference, Culver City, California November, 1987

Every man, woman, and responsible child has an unalienable individual, civil, Constitutional, and human right to obtain, own, and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon -- rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything -- any time, any place, without asking anyone's permission.

Someday to demonstrate that principle -- before I'm lying on my deathbed in a hospital with green plastic tubes up my nose, before arthritis sets in and I have to do it on crutches -- I intend to walk the length of Manhattan Island with a handgun openly on my hip, unmolested by any freelance or official parasite.

The question is, how do I get there from here?

In the 80s we are witnessing the rise of a New Victorianism (the sort of mindset which prefers the word "limbs" to "legs") aimed not so much at human sexuality this time around (although that's happening, too) as the human capacity for violence.

Victorian times weren't characterized by sexual abstinence. Many of today's kinkier turn-ons originated in that era of repression, hypocrisy, sublimation, and guilt. Whenever any basic human function is repressed, behavioral distortions arise.

The claim today is that weapons are evil, that anyone dumb enough to try protecting himself will come to a bad end, that violence is always wrong, that non-violence is always and unquestionably right. Never was the persecution of a minority more persistent than that of gun owners, nor more hypocritical. Like any other law, gun control is enforced at gun point. Those preaching non-violence are lobbying to license thugs for the purpose of imposing their views on others, unleashing against innocent people the deadliest weapon ever devised: government.

Repression never helps. Violence, like sexuality, is a morally neutral, perfectly natural capacity, linked with the survival of the species and the individual. A pseudo-morality of non-violence only serves the interests of established authority and other criminals by disarming the decent and making them helpless victims of evil. Charles Manson was a product of this pseudo-morality. So was Jim Jones. The only way to create a less violent society is to face the phenomenon honestly and openly, just as courageous thinkers like Havelock Ellis once did with sex.

History's most revolutionary ideas seldom blow bugles announcing their arrival. The work of Gregor Mendel, the first geneticist, went unnoticed for decades. And even otherwise well-educated individuals have trouble pointing to the time, place, and party responsible for the invention of the Scientific Method.

Likewise, another intellectual revolution has occurred in recent years that Dan Rather never told you about: the Non-Aggression Principle, a product of honest, open, courageous Libertarian thinking about ethics, states that "no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being." This is all Libertarianism consists of, no more, no less. It's the most important thought ever generated by the mind of man. Those who act consistently with it are Libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not Libertarians, regardless of what they may claim. Read the full Declaration

For more of Neil Smith's writings visit his Lever Action Essays

Note, if you're a Bush'ist, you'll not like what he has to say. He's a genuine advocate of freedom, armed freedom.

[FrayAdjacent911]

Pat, wow, this is one subject I can wholly agree with you on!

I'd really like it if we could get the 2nd Amendment restored in all respects. People are too swayed by the socially imposed notion that ALL violence is bad, and GUNS are associated with violence, so therefore all guns are bad.

I think we've made headway... the Assault Weapons Ban sunset, and efforts to renew it have been thwarted. The Anti-gun groups like to conveniently ignore the fact that the CDC and DOJ released reports stating the AWB did nothing measureable, and that, in spite of the restrictions, over 1,000,000 semi automatic rifles were sold during the AWB's 10 year run.

I am seeing some good things, though. Some openly liberal people (who are usually Democrats, and usually support gun control) are seeing that the People need to have the right to defend themselves, and often owning a gun is an important part of that.

[kach22i]

I'm going to post this link for Michigan residents - Frequently Asked Questions About Michigan's Concealed Pistol Law.

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10953--,00.html

As a side note, I got caught up in reading a little about Class-3 dealers, automatic guns before 1986 and the like. Complex; like all things touched by the govenment.

[Joeaksa]

Pat,

Is it too far to say that you agree with someone in one area, even if you and I do not agree in others?

Joe A

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
Pat,

Is it too far to say that you agree with someone in one area, even if you and I do not agree in others?

Joe A

No, it's not Joe. I hammer away on the areas in which we do not agree, because you're correct on those that we agree on and don't need work there.

I arrived at my current anti-government position largely from the gun issue. I saw that when given strength from other venues, government used that strength to gain power in other areas.

So that if you support a strong military without question, you support an equally strong anti-gun government by default. You can't have both, a grant of strenght is a grant that runs across the whole of government.

If you seek freedom as much as I do, government must be reduced, and not in just one area but in all areas, or we'll all pay the price.

For example, Bush I wrote an executive order that stopped all foreign made semi-automatic military style weapons being imported by telling US Customs to simply not grant import licenses to the importers. Stroke of the pen, law of the land, kinda' cool as a Clintonista said later. That is of course, completely unConstitutional. Has that executive order been rescinded by Bush II, no, of course not because that would undo an usurped executive power. This president is accumulating as much new territory into executive power as he can muster, as fast as possible, he's not going to undo anything that would return a stolen power.

The federal court system is as corrupt as the day is long, hasn't heard a Second Amendment case since 1938, will not be reining in this, or any other, president well into the future. Roosevelt broke the back of the independent Supreme Court over Social Security and it's really never recovered.

All I ask of you and others is to think about how much you're going to like the precedents being set by this president, the plenary powers to wage war that extend into America, when the president is Hillary Clinton or worse. This president is using precedents set by Lincoln, Wilson, Roosevelt and all who came after him; that's how the presidency has stolen so much power, and why it's been nearly impossible to wrest it away from the executive branch.

Think about how much freedom you want. Then think about how you're going to get it.

[pbs911]

It's kind of strange that a threat about the right to CCW is one of the only threads where people here can agree and live in peace and harmony. Does this demonstrate that an armed society IS a polite society?

[slakjaw]

Originally posted by pbs911
It's kind of strange that a threat about the right to CCW is one of the only threads where people here can agree and live in peace and harmony. Does this demonstrate that an armed society IS a polite society?

No

It's only at 2 pages

Give it time.

[David]

I've thought about getting a CHL but I can't ever spend money on a gun I'll rarely shoot rather than spend it on the car. I figure it's like a boat, why own something when you have friends the own them and let you use them on that rare occation. With that said:

There was an incident in Houston a few years ago where someone got out of their car in a road rage incident and the other guy had a CHL and killed him. The shooter was not charged in the incident. Had the shooter not had a gun, I bet he would have gotten a broken nose but the other guy would be alive. Something to think about.

[FrayAdjacent911]

125,

How would the survivor have known that the other guy would ONLY bloody his nose? What if the other guy was intent on beating him into a coma? Or even dead?

Killing someone with your bare hands is really not that difficult. Sometimes a good punch to the face can cause serious trauma to the brain.

The thing is, when you are attacked, you don't have the responsibility to wait and see how bad the other person is going to beat you.

You shoot to STOP an attack. Not to kill someone. If they die as a result of your stopping their attack on you, then that's on their soul, not yours.

[cegerer]

In Michigan and many other states it is legal to carry a sidearm in the open without any license. You can walk down the road or wherever with a 45 strapped to your leg. It's always been that way, but 95% of the population are not aware. The problem is as soon as you get in a vehicle, you are 'transporting and concealing' the weapon and need a CCW. But as long as you walk from your home, you can go pretty much anywhere you want with that 45 on your hip. That said, I've yet to see anybody carrying a pistol in the open in Michigan.

The funny thing is the Democrats in Michigan predicted chaos, riots, road rage shootings, social unrest, rampant murders, etc. if the 'Right to Carry' law was passed some 3-4 years ago. Well, it passed overwhelmingly and gun crime has been down ever since. In fact, I'm not aware of a single gun crime involving anyone with a CCW permit. Hmmmm ...

[fastpat]

Originally posted by 125shifter

There was an incident in Houston a few years ago where someone got out of their car in a road rage incident and the other guy had a CHL and killed him. The shooter was not charged in the incident. Had the shooter not had a gun, I bet he would have gotten a broken nose but the other guy would be alive. Something to think about.

I know about that incident. The perpetrator was a young tough, with a substantial criminal record, who didn't just punch the guy out, he permanently blinded him in one eye and put the real victim in in the hospital for weeks. The guy, in his 60's, being beaten barely got to his gun in time to save his own life.

That demonstrates the power of the national media and the fascists at the Brady Center. Your version is nearly identical to the version they published, and not what really happened at all.

[cegerer]

Interesting to hear the facts. Thanks Pat.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by cegerer
Interesting to hear the facts. Thanks Pat.

My pleasure. I've contacted an old friend about the names and dates, I need to refresh my memory on the particulars, and he's likely to know.

[Rick Lee]

I think 60 Minutes did a story on that TX case and in it, Leslie Stahl went through the FL CCW process.

[FrayAdjacent911]

You don't hear much about defensive uses of guns in the media... they can be found occasionally...

I remember one that was republished in an NRA magazine, a woman in Phoenix awoke one night to hear someone in her house. She got out her .45 and went to investigate, and found a man in her livingroom, going through her purse. He confronted her and said he'd kill her and her kids, so she shot him dead.

But that's not the end of the story....

The man was later identified by a woman whom earlier that same night, he had kidnapped, raped, beat, shot and left for dead in the desert. She survived.