A 3.2 can be modified to 3.4, 3.5, 3.6, 3.7 or 3.8. The cylinders are not bored, rather, the jugs and pistons are replaced. Other modifications are required including tot he crank when getting to the larger displacements.

Oh I see. I see... Yes, I would pass on it too. Too bad, Id love something like that with a good rebuild.

Have you noticed that MM advertises in Panorama monthly....thats disappointing.

advertising revenues trump most reasonable business ethics when there's a bottomline to be maintained..
ryan

This is a nice car that drives very well. This car would do wonders on the track, not all rebuilds done by MM are a failure and I'm in no way affiliated with the outfit. Please do not post my home address and phone number.

"not all rebuilds done by MM are a failure"

How can you defend these guys? You are either ignorant or worse.

hmmm one post... sure you are not

I'm a big fan of the 'German Process' which involves crushing the piston ring lands to reduce clearances to like new.

Neato.

It
just
gets
uglier -

So you are not what? I did not appreciate my name and address being posted.......that's it.

Glad to see you are 'not affiliated with this outfit' :rolleyes:
Come on........you are the OWNER of the car ~~

You guys crack me up anyone in Connecticut want a test drive, trust me you will not be dissappointed. And for the record the car is all there

It cant be that bad of a rebuild, after all he got the "BIG BATTERY" option for $109.95:rolleyes:

Noah,

Sorry, I thought about that a lot. I figured it was published
in a national publication; I did an appropriate quoted excerpt
for critical review and was posted as an image which is difficult
to search. I should have erased the personal info. Right call
Noah. I’ll re-post the text only.

This was published on page 84 of the February, 2006 issue of
Porsche Panorama. On one hand if something is published, it
is fair for critical review. On the other hand, we need to
respect people’s privacy.

I was tempted to post the MM advertisement from the Feb
Pano issue but didn’t in deference to Wayne’s policy. That
adv could stand some scrutiny in light of everything else.


This ‘89 911 would make a nice daily for me and I’m interested.
I would have to assume the worst about the installed engine
based on all the posts on the various 911 bbs’ and some
face-to-face discussions with MM vic…. err, customers. I’m
not the least hesitant about swapping engines back & forth.
Having a good OE engine and then disassembling the MM
engine for inspection doesn’t bother me. Over the past 35+
years most of my Porsches have had multiple engines available
and many swapped regularly. I had nine 587/3 engines
for 904-017, 904-055 and 718-055. That is 8% of the total
production of the engines!


Perhaps these discussions can persuade some to change their
ways and make amends for past indiscrete practices. Hope
springs eternal.

Best,
Grady

As posted before....Pano is a whore.....they'll take money from anyone.

I'm not jumping on the MM bashwagon, since I have never used any of their products.

I am curious as to how the 3.6L displacement was achieved. Since this is your car, I assume that you know what you the build entailed and what you paid for.

Taking a 3.2L to 3.6L & beyond requires the following (I am going to skip 3.4L & 3.5L short-stroke & long-stroke because it is apparently not relevant in this case)

100mm cylinders w/ pistons that are specially machined and are used with a 964 crank will make 3.6L with a 3.2L case. This conversion would use the stock connecting rods if one wanted. I didn't find any reference to a crank being purchased, perhaps I missed it?

102mm cylinders w/ pistons can be used with the stock 3.2L crank which makes for a 3.7L motor. Aftermarket rods such as Carillo or Pauter would need to be used with this conversion.

This is assuming Mahle components of course, which would form the basis for a stellar rebuild. A large displacement motor such as this would need twin-plugging and an extra cooler (in addition to the engine & aux. cooler in the fenderwell) to survive long-term in a street environment.

I think other people have asked before, but what are the internal specs to arrive at 3.6L? Not bashing, just curious since I can't divulge the info from the invoice.:)

I wish you good luck with the sale, I don't think the guy needs to bashed for trying to sell his car. I would speculate his car is nicer than many others here on this board.

No affiliation to anyone. They must be doing something right (or won the lottery) if they have been around as long as they have.

Ralph

EDIT: "Popular" bore & stroke combo's for Mahle piston/cylinder sets. Some combo's originally developed & built by Andial.

95mm x 74.4mm = stock 3.2L

98mm x 74.4mm = 3.4L

98mm x 76.4mm = 3.5L long-stroke

100mm x 74.4mm = 3.5L short-stroke

100mm x 76.4mm = 3.6L

102mm x 74.4mm = 3.7L

I think it's already been stated a few times in previos posts that ndavis951 did not pay MM for this work - he bought the car with the work already done.

I, for one, think he's done a fine job in the eBay listing - the MM stigma will make it a bit harder to sell, but at least all (ok, most) of the cards are on the table. Props for that.

I would like to know the reason he is selling it however - as stated in the ad, the car sounds fine and a hoot to drive. I would love to own a 300+hp 'carburetored' beast. Why let it go?

I think that is your reason for recourse. Tough to get to 3.6 without changing the crank - invoice says crank cleaned and micropolished. So - how did they get to 3.6l?

and if they didn;t = fraud. Sell me something that is not true.

I wouldn't want my name and address on an invoice for MM either.

Ralph,

I couldn’t agree more. I share your curiosity.

Could you edit your post showing the bore/stroke for each? Many need that info when considering these conversions. Much of this is in Bruce Anderson’s Porsche 911 Performance Handbook 2nd Ed. available from our host. There are also crankshaft-to-case issues.

I also agree, this seems to be a very nice ’89 911 Carrera. Has it had a PPI?

Best,
Grady

Well as much as everyone loves to get all amped up..Davis is not the owner of this car.. The owner buys and sells cars. thats how he makes a living. He sells quality cars and in no way is out to screw anyone..Yes it is unfortunete that MM did the engine work but this in no way reflects on the seller.. Just my 2 cents

Jay

Thanks Jay well said. Jay what color is your S4

Norm

Jay,

It does reflect on the seller if the car is marketed (and knowingly perhaps) as something it may not be. If in fact the car is not a 3.6L (and the documentation presented thus far indicates it is not) he is in fact trying to screw someone...:(

Whether Porsche Motorsport or MM rebuilt the motor is a separate issue altogether in my opinion.

If someone buys the car, takes the motor down and finds that it is not a 3.6L, would the seller give the money back or further discount the car to reflect the inaccurate information? That would be what a seller that is honest and has integrity would do, don't you think?:)

Ralph

Well now I see that Norman Davis is the seller in Panorama...I do not know Norman, but I know Brian who listed this car.. Im assuming that Brian is selling this car for him, not to sure what they have worked out..

Jay

This thing is starting to smell a bit fishy now.

Ladies-

Man the internet can be a wonderful thing but it's things like this that show just how far out of wack things can get. Some of you really have too much time on your hands - apparently I do too by joining here to reply but I feel compelled after this was brought to my attention, as the current 'owner' Brian is a good friend of mine, as are Jay & Norm here.

Jeeze.

For all you Dick Tracy's... like Jay said, Brian is a wholesaler and bought this car as a dealer trade. He is a stand up guy who has a 10-yr. rep. of buying and selling solid cars.

Jay, Norm, and me are all local car-idiots that have all done business with Brian for years. Norm's a PCA member so he posted the car for Brian.

That said.

I've put that car through the paces. It's all of what is said about it - and then some. It pulls like no tomorrow, drives solid as you could imagine, smells like new. Car is *all there*. While the motor is a MM motor and I cannot attest to anything about it other than what the invoices say and how it looks, sounds, and feels, if I'd not heard you guys bashing the MM name I'd not for a second think anything remotely odd with this car. It drives *amazingly * - and I've piloted at speed Maybachs / too many F-cars & P-cars / Costworths, etc. It's impressive.

Like others have said, clean solid Carreras around here hover in the 20k range, and this one is priced accordingly.

For all you Inspectors' Clueseau out there... enough internet soap opera-ing already. You don't want / like the car don't buy it. Want to know more about it and be set straight? Go drive it. Thing will make you giggle like a schoolgirl right from fire-up, it spits snarfs and barks at a perfectly stable lumpy idle. Step in it and it's a torque monster, begs to be revved. Interior / exterior are beautiful, motor looks clean as can be. Whether it will grenade itself b/c it's a MM motor who knows??? But the seller is legit and the car at least would appear to be from impressions gathered after a thorough spurring.

You'll say what you will, regardless. Hope that ends your soap opera about it here tho and makes things clear.

-Paul in CT
no Porsches but happy to chime in for good friends who are good folk


ps. relisting was due to high bidder getting cold feet after auction ended, never saw car never mentioned MM, his feedback was "6" and his bid history was ALL over the radar - total flake - so there's sometimes good reason for a relist.

Things can feel great but be a sucky time bomb inside.
Seen the handiwork of MM before forsthand, it is spooky *****.

I was well aware of that fact. I guess what I was implying and I should have stated was, can you insert jugs large enough for a 3.6 liter displacement without machining the cases to accept them? Is there even enough metal to open up holes big enough to produce a 3.6L motor with out a stroker crank, which MM does not include on the invoice.

It is a pretty car though.

Regards,

Jerry

has the question of 'just what engine is in there?' been answered yet? 3.2..3.6..something in between?? what's the consensus best guess?
ryan

Judging from the paperwork seen here, I'd say NOT a 3.6...:p

Something to take away from all this?

MM rebuild = The Kiss of Death

Well now I'm kind of curious. If the car is still around next week, I'd love to take it for a test drive, or just check it out. I'm in manhattan. I could possibly even see this thing tomorrow morning. Who should I contact - Norm, Brian, or Paul?

Thanks.

well, it must be 'somewhere' between 3.2 and 3.6...we'll just average and call it an 'approximate 3.4'?? ;)
ryan

Paul in CT,

When I talked to Brian at 860-916-0254 (name & number listed in the ebay adv) on 2/15/06, he represented that the 1989 Carrera WPOAB0917KS120413 was his and that he was a private party selling two of his personal cars because he was expecting taking delivery of a new car. He said his wife told him two must go. He did not represent himself as a dealer (wholesale or retail).

I don’t know Connecticut motor vehicle dealer regulations but a quick search resulted in lots of DMV regulations and consumer protection statutes. Probably important for a dealer to know.

In Colorado it is illegal for a wholesale dealer to sell retail, either directly or via a third party who is not a licensed retail motor vehicle dealer.

I can see where this may get fuzzy selling interstate on ebay or via Pano adv.
I think it important to know who actually owns the 911. Is it owned and titled by Brian? By him personally or under his wholesale dealership? Why the quotes around ‘owner’? Is it being brokered by Brian with an “open” title? Is there some other?

Norm, who is the PCA member may be abusing his membership privilege. The rules read: 6. Items offered for sale must be the personal property of the PCA member and not connected with any business enterprise.
I read this to mean the 911 is his personal property and not belonging to a dealer. Brian represents the 911 as his. It can’t be both. :rolleyes:


Paul, your clarifying all this will help remove lingering doubts of potential buyers. It would be useful if Brian would post here. It is important to know his dealership name and CT Dealer license number.

I think you mis-interpret what goes on here with your glib remarks. Most here are stanch Porsche fans (this is a 911 Technical Forum). This isn’t a “soap opera.” We don’t like to see new and unsuspecting Porsche owners preyed upon by unscrupulous businesses or individuals. The Forum regularly helps perspective buyers appropriately evaluate a 911 they are considering.


I agree with Ralph (Pelican Carrera3.5L), there are now two issues here. Originally it was concern about the MM engine and what a new owner might expect. Now, additionally, it is about how the car and seller is represented.

I’m not going to pursue buying the 911. When I find someone not being up-front and truthful, I walk, your testimonial notwithstanding. There is something important about “The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.”

Best,
“Frau Tracey Clueseasu:cool:”
aka Grady Clay:)

Hello

i'd just like to say somehting...

my engine was originalyl rebuilt by motormiester...

however i didn;t pay much at all.... and becasue they were taking so long to do the build i finally got aroudn to reading various forums....i then panicked.....

as soon as the engine was in my car and running i was worried.... it was reliavely stock from them, some new pieces..... new pistons (JE), and stuff....however reading all the post made me nervous.... so i had my local porsche specilty shop tear it apart, and it ended out that they assembled my engine out of almost entierly new parts...and nothing was wrong with it..... but once again i had it apart...so i had a TON of mods done....


my point is that my MM was fine.... good price, good shipping, good engine.....but i feared the worst....and had everythign checked and redone....

well..... my dad paid for the second stage...seeing as he was the one that talked me into motormiester instead of andial.....(price was a factor too)......


but ya.... from the post i've seen, compared to the number of engine's they've done.....i don;t think there as bad as made out....


now....the 3.3L turbo - 2.7CIS...seems on the surface A HUGE RIP OFF....however...they were taking a risk on the 3.3L, and he was getting a working, lightly modified engine.....

one of my dad's friends actually recommened them....and his car is a wicked and his engine has been perfect for 4 years!.....and 18 000km's.....some of that being auto-cross... (the engine is a 3LSC, which has been pushed to 3.4)

just my 5 cents
Nick

I dont even know where to begin but i do know that if I have a question about something, I would ask the person that may know the answer rather than publicly speculate and spread rumors as to what the answer could be.

I own the 1989 911 with the MM conversion on ebay. What I do for a living has NOTHING to do with why I purchased or why I am selling this car. This is one of my PERSONAL vehicles. I purchased this car in September '05 from an idividual in Massachusettes, who wrote the check for 20k for the upgrades, to do some track events and drive on weekends. I dont seem to have alot of free time at the moment as well as I have a '06 Rangerover due in the end of the month so 2 of my cars have to go, this is one of them.

Here are some facts that I do know about the car:
The motor is a 3.2 liter (case and crank) with 3.6 pistons and jugs --Big Bore Kit. It is listed and underlined in the reciepts from MM. I never once stated that the car had a 3.6 transplanted. 3.2 with 3.6 big bore kit. As to whether this is possible, Motor Meister would be better equipped to answer that question. But from a drivers prespective it seems to work very well.

Norm is a friend of mine who asked if I wanted him to list the car for me on some porsche web site (not ebay) , I said ok and he did. He has nothing to do with the listing or ownership of this car.--Thanks Norm

This car was on ebay ONCE prior to the current relisting. The previous high bidders email is listed (with his permission) in the vehicle description.

Whatever reputation Motor Meister has (apparently on this forum it is not much of one), I highly doubt that each and every motor which they build is junk. I had never even heard of MM before purchasing this car, but the set up is amazing.

There is nothing fishy about anything to do with this car or this listing. If you have any questions, ASK ME!! If someone purchases this car and felt it was inaccurately represented, I would refund there full out of pocket expense.

Grady, I dont appreciate you publishing every name, address and phone number that you pull off other web sites but if it helps you sleep better at night, keep trying to solve the mystery of the 911.

thanks, Brian

If we only had X-Ray eyes to see & measure inside the engine.....seriously.

Then all doubt would be removed.

I feel for ya, man. Gonna be a tough sell.

well, i can't speak for everyone else..but me and my 911 sleep better each night knowing grady's on the board. ;)
ryan

There is a sportomatic on Ebay now, that boast a Motor Miester engine rebuild. I sent an email telling how they should leave out the MM reference. They said the motor was running fine. Bet it goes for about half what it should because anyone who knows will figure on an engine rebuild.

I am sure that Gradys knowledge of Porsches is endless but that doesnt dictate a right to publish personal info belonging to others without their permission or assault peoples integrity based on the here-say of others. The reason for my previous post was to share my reasoning behind selling and what I know about the car, seems that with all the speculation stories become more and more ridiculous. I was just trying to sell my'89 911 on ebay, thats all.

See its at this point that I'm glad I love the 356 and only appreciate the "newer" cars... $20k could probably rebuild both an engine and transmission twice, especially if the second half was invested for the looong wait until it was needed again.

Thanks Grady for getting the truth out.

I don't know what PCA does to people that violate their listing rules...

And, yes, it is always posible that MM put an engine together correctly and w/o using worn parts. Available data indicate that is rare however. Sad for the owner...