Anyone?

Sorry but I'm trusting Grady over guys that registered in Feb and have under 10 posts!
I have never chimed in about my experience with MM until now, and will not go into detail but with the amount of good used Porsches on the market that MM hasn't touched I would not even consider a car that Roy and those cr@@ks have had their hands on.
Good luck on selling the car.
Steve

Has ANYONE stopped by lately to check on how many Porsches are currently at MM?

Might be interesting.

It has the 3.6 big bore kit and the racemeister fuel delivery system - so it must all be true.

I posted this thread because I had never seen a detailed account of what MM charges.

I hope your car holds together - the G50 cars are special to me.

My bet is that it's a 3.4 engine - 98mm big bore, PMO's - hopefully this time they used new parts.

Brian,

We have already determined that it is not a 964/993 3.6L transplanted (I think most here knew that immediately), but if you reread the ebay ad description you gave one could certainly take it that way:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1989-PORSCHE-911-CARRERA-COUPE-G50-TRANSMISSION_W0QQitemZ4613705387

Unless I read it or interpret it wrong, you state it is a "3.6L conversion" and not a 3.6L big bore kit as you describe (whatever that is as there there is no such thing).:(

I realize that it is probably a 3.2L case, crank & rods with a best case scenario 100mm pistons/cylinders (the stock bore size of a 3.6L motor) which would yield 3.5L in displacement and worst case the stock bore size of 95mm's.

I'm sure the motor probably runs great with the carbs and wild cams, and the car looks pretty clean as well in the pictures. Since you are selling the car and it is up to you to be as honest and straightforward as possible, wouldn't it be in your interest to give MM a ring and ask some questions. Any reputable engine builder keeps a file on a motor rebuild and should only take a few moments to decipher what work was performed, even from many years ago. Heck, even if you called MM and asked what brand P's & C's were used would probably go a long way in determining what may be inside.

I'm sure you'll sell it in due course and wish you luck, but the buyer will either not know he is being misled or simply won't care. If I were buying the car with the premise that it is a 3.6L of some sort and it turns out you have misrepresented (whether intentional or not), I'm not going to blame MM, I'm first going to blame myself for being stupid and than going to blame you as you were the one who stated that it was a 3.6L "conversion".

Wouldn't it be more honest to state a 3.2L with big-bore pistons & cylinders since you don't know (and seems like you don't really care) what is really inside?

It also would have been better if you would have initially responded to the growing firestorm rather than your two cronies respond with their less than stellar comments and further add fuel to the fire...:)

Ralph

So I'm curious is this Grady a master Porsche technician or do you guys watch Porsche ads in trade mags and Ebay to get your kicks.

Go drive your damn cars and get from behind the keyboard.....oh yeah bring it on

]

Uh oh...:eek:

Calm down. The folks on this board drive their cars plenty.

There is nothing wrong with a health dose of skeptism when it comes to MM. After you have heard your 10th horror story.....

No one on this board actually has any idea what parts were used in your engine. If it hauls ass, it hauls ass.

Regardless of the builder, folks are quite skeptical of E-bay cars in general, including me (btw, I bought my SC off E-bay and have been very happy).

Try this simple Google on Mr. Grady Clay and note interesting keywords like Daytona and IMSA. A well-known and well-regarded Porsche Authority and a Gentleman.

You gotta have some major stones to defend MM on this BBS. Too many people have been burned by them. I am frankly shocked that they are still "getting"people.

You know he ought to sell the car to MM. Done deal.

Entertaining thread. I'm confused, who really owns the car, because it seems like we've had multiple claims? I think that until it can be substantiated that the motor really is a 3.6, that it's a bold faced lie to market it as such. And a "reciept" typed in Word or Notepad doesn't count. When realizing that the parts listed don't add up to a 3.6, the seller should have called MM and jumped down their throats demanding justification. Instead he/them/whatever post on here, essentially accusing all of us of spreading lies, claiming only that the car runs well. Well my friend, this is all squarely on your shoulders now, because you have full knowledge of the doubts surrounding your motor. Anyone with integrity would sort this out before attempting to sell the car, but I think your posts on here speak volumes as to your intentions. Selling the car as a 3.6 right now is nothing short of outright fraud.

Having first hand experience with Roy & MM, I would never buy any thing from them, built by them or even supplied by them, period.
As to this particular 911, it is listed in Pano by some one other then the owner as a "3.6 Motor Meister" engine. As many have pointed out, this 3.6 label is not a true description of the motor.
Brian, it is unfortunate that you bought this car with the MM engine and are now trying to sell it using that as a strong point. It just does not add up for many in the Porsche community when someone says MM= quality. A little research would have brought the MM situation to the surface, not just here but many places.
How does one smog this engine? It would not pass here in Cali. I suppose other states are less stringent?
Lastly, Grady is stand up all the way. A little reading and research again would have gone a long way.

YOU may not know who Grady is; but I think we have pretty well got you figured out.

As a partner in a retail (i.e. licensed) used car business here in Texas, I have met many of your ilk. Honesty was not one of the attributes held in high esteem by any of them...

Have a nice day, good luck with the car...:eek:

Onewhippedpuppy,



I’m glad you’re enjoying the thread, but I find your post confusing. Maybe I can help you:



I own the car. Period. No one else has claimed ownership. This is my private car owned and driven by me. Norm did me a personal favor and listed it Panorama, so I understand that there may have been some ownership confusion, but I thought I had cleared the air. I own the car. Any questions on this, please contact me directly so that I can provide you with an affidavit or photos, or a note from my mother; whatever you require. Again: I own the car.



Nowhere did I claim that the motor was a 3.6. The ebay ad says “3.6 conversion” which, in retrospect, may be a little ambiguous. Fortunately, even though I had no idea that the car would subjected to such a thorough cross-examination, I had the good sense to post all the receipts for the work so that potential buyers could read and see exactly what the “conversion” entailed. Some of these potential buyers have even taken the extraordinary step of contacting me to ask me questions; a novel and creative approach for sure. Please accept my deepest heartfelt apologies for the quality of the receipts; their poor quality is yet another crime upon humanity perpetrated by Motor Meister. And no, I will not be calling MM and “demanding justification”. I believe the receipts I have accurately portray the work done on the car. Further, I am not their customer, the previous owner is: they owe me nothing.



My objections to the comments on this board are that most were made without making any effort to contact me or clarify anything. Grady is the exception; while I may not agree with all of the comments he made, at least he took the time to contact me for the real information.



As for your comment, “Selling the car as a 3.6 right now is nothing short of outright fraud.” I agree 100%. However, no one is doing that. I am selling the car for what it is: a conversion with documentation detailing the work done. I suggest you take the remainder of the day to carefully reread my comments in the forum and on the ebay listed. If your opinion is not changed, perhaps a class in remedial reading comprehension would be helpful?

“I think your posts on here speak volumes as to your intentions”. I certainly hope so.

I am done with this thread. I guess the bottom line is that the negative and borderline libelous comments made on this board are all by people who do not know me and do not know the car. Other than Grady, no one has contacted me, and while Grady did contact me, he was not truthful in his motive for contact. Rather than me withholding information from him, the opposite is in fact the truth. None of you keyboard critics have taken the time to see and drive the car. Say what you will about MM, this car is the real deal. It runs like it should, even 5k miles out of the shop. Just how long should can I expect this to continue before all this “substandard” work grenades the engine? Give me a break.

Please pardon my sarcasm.

Brian -

Well, someone may buy it, it may reappear here, and then you'll hear about it some more once the new owner finds out. Won't be the first time it's happened.. Heck, you heard about it?

Either way, technically you are correct - you have a plausible excuse. Just hope whomever buys it doesn't find this out somehow.

rjp

Not only do we drive our cars, but we wrench on them, have research about them, show them off to each other, and share a genuine passion for them. One of the ways this manifests itself in what you have seen in this thread - BS detection as a result of an obscene amount of combined knowledge that is frequently, without question, and freely given upon request by people such as the recently maligned Grady Clay.

From what I've seen here over the years, I'd take his word as gospel before I'd consider an ounce of one of the three of yours BS (brianct, Ndavis and the other guy...) on this car.

Too much disinformation being spun up on this car, anyone with a quarter brain would be wise to walk away.

Brian,

It's good to see that you may be finally "getting it". Here is your first paragraph again for those who haven't seen the complete ebay ad:

"This is an exceptional example of a 1989 911 coupe. I have just over $20,000. in reciepts from Motor Meister in California for a 3.6 conversion that was done only 5,000 miles ago. The 5 pages which list all of the work done to the car are in with the pictures beloW."

Most everyone knows that the parts needed to make a 3.6L from a 3.0L/3.2L/3.3L are expensive and needs to be done right for long-term reliability, which is why people (incl. me) are scouring the MM receipts you've listed (which was good btw) looking for parts documentation to support your claim. I've seen many and had a hand in many of these types of motors built, probably more than 90% of the people on this board. Your darn right people are going to cross-examine, as any diligent potential buyer should.

Me personally, I don't care who the owner of the car is nor do I care who built the motor and what the build quality may or may not be. Those are questions asked by interested buying parties and would be resolved with a PPI and some research.

The only problem that I have had with all of this is that up until your last post, you simply misrepresented the car (ignorantly or not) and didn't seem to care, hiding behind the "Previous owner had the motor built by MM" and thus it isn't my problem. It is your problem.

What do you tell somebody in person when they come to see/drive the car? Are you up front and tell them it's a 3.6L "conversion" when you know now it isn't? Why don't you edit your ebay listing and simply mention that it has "big bore" pistons & cylinders and leave it at that? In my opinion, this absolves you from misrepresenting the car and makes for an accurate listing.:)

Your obviously going to do what you want (and you should since its your car) but hopefully you have a conscience and don't try and net a few thousand extra dollars out of the car by having to misrepresent it. If the car looks and drives as nice as you say it does, it will quickly sell at a fair price on its own merits.

Like you, I'm done with this thread.SmileWavy

Ralph

Bearing in mind the fact that I obviously have the reading comprehension of a 3rd grader, could I recieve some clarification as to your reply? You are marketing the car as a "3.6 conversion", and yet you are not claiming the car to be a 3.6? If it is in fact not, I'm sure your EBay bidders would be very interested to know what is in the car. I think the mere fact that you have tried to distance yourself from the claim exposes your own doubts, and yet you have not had the internal fortitude to express this to your potential buyers. Appearently we have surpassed the integrity price point in this issue.

I do hope that you will acknowledge that you have a responsibility to accurately represent the car that you are selling, and that any doubts as to the validity of the work will be expressed to potential buyers. Better yet would be to further research the issue, so that you can provide an accurate portrayal of your car. You may be tempted to downplay the validity of internet critism, but the knowledge of several that posted on this thread is tough to match. I know that it is a tough spot, I'm sure the car was sold to you represented as a 3.6, and it never feels good to get screwed. I can only hope that you will do the right thing in the end, and not simply pass on this doubt to the next uninformed buyer. It looks to otherwise be a nice car, I hope that this issue can be resolved such that both you and your future buyer benefit.

Money & greed drive men to do interesting things.

The auction was just ended, and this added:
"The 3.6 conversion in this car is as follows:

3.6 big bore piston and cylinder conversion. The case and crank are the original 3.2 liter. I thought this was clear and apologize if anyone was misled."

Glad he decided to be forthcoming, but this is still misleading. It's not a 3.6 conversion with the original crank! At least this will give the informed buyers a clue to begin asking questions. I don't know what the big deal is, if it really does have a big bore P&C kit, and is maybe a 3.4, it's still worth something. It's just very much not a 3.6.

It's obviously a juicy worm on a hook, but I'll take the bait.

Disparaging Grady is accomplishing what? You may want to do a little research before taking on one of the fathers of this board; try a simple search using his name as the qualifier. The quantity and quality of his posts attest to his knowledge, skill and passion. Take a wander down one of his threads, it will be obvious.

This seems more like a smokescreen being used to distract members from the real issue regarding this automobile for sale on eBay with the 3.6 "conversion".

Consider it "brought on"


BTW - I would drive my "damn car" except it's in pieces - being worked on with the assistance of people on this board.

jstein..it isn't so much about the breadth and depth of grady's unreachable porsche experience, knowledge and skill, but it doesn't take long at all to realize what a truly generous class act he is from a to z, almost painfully long on humility given his impressive resume. he's simply inscrutable on this board from my vantage point..never known to make anything close to resembling 'personal attacks'. as reported, he's a stand-up guy and makes up a colossal portion of the lion's share of 'porsche wealth' on this board. so to address 'ndavis951'..'master porsche technician' barely begins to describe this particular man.

BigChill, I could not have put it any better then you did, Kudos for your excellent comments on Grady. He is simply a guy with vastly more knowledge then anyone you’ll meet anywhere and he’s happy to share it in a courteous way even on the smallest of items. I am shocked someone would post disparaging words towards a guy that adds so much to this community and in the manner Grady does.

I chimed in earlier on this very interesting thread. I had exchanged emails with whichever one of these guys listed it on eBay and my cursory read of his description on eBay lead me to believe it was a 3.6 swap not a 3.6 born out of a 3.2. I share some of the blame for not reading more carefully and looking closer at the photos. Surely the comments about the car on eBay and in Pano can be easily construed as this being a 964 or 993 3.6.

thanks, trader..
ryan

A fool and his money, surprising they got together in the first place.

hmmm 3.6 on that old engine
am I missing something?

Still, he did get reams of paper listing all sorts of things.
im suprised they missed out.

<li> Black Ink
<li> Ink aplicator
<li> White Paper

This is not relevant to the sale of the car, but some of the discussion in this thread has me curious. There seems to be a lot of heartache about the posting of peoples phone numbers, addresses, names, etcetera. Even to the point that one post implies impropriety. But isn't any publicly available information fair game? Is there any real violation in the posting of Brians information, if it is already available on ebay or in the white pages?

And I ask this also because I did some google-research aswell. At least in public records, the name on the receipt does not match the address on the receipt. I'm sure somebody could have moved in or out since he bought it 5 months ago, so it's probably nothing worth mentioning.

**edit: I just realised the invoice is dated from 2003. See, I knew that it was irrelevant about the address.

I think the one thing that Brian, Norm, and others who read this thread will take away as a lesson is this: Do not mention MM in your ad. Truely, if Brian had just listed the work done and had never posted the receipts or mentioned MM, then this thread would have most likely never existed.

My personal experience with MM is very, very limited. I had contacted them to do a rebuild on an engine, and the prices seemed too low. So I did some homework and learned to steer clear.

I can't believe this was moved to off topic - not sure what could be more technical/specific than an engine rebuild sheet, even if it is from motormeister. Hope if anyone is searching for motormeister they also choose "off topic" forums in their search.

well, i honestly think the receipt posting was done because brian honestly (like the rest of us) could not be sure or figure out what exactly the motor in his car is now. he knows it hauls balls, but wasn't sure and was hoping these records would make it clearer to a potential buyer. unfortunately, we all read 'mm' and immediately (and wisely) assume the worst.
ryan

Wow. 2 more pages of gibberish on this over the weekend? Amazing. I'm sorry I was busy taking my kids skating, driving my cars, working on them, and having a beer with some quality car guys I've met over the years to notice, and didn't have time to further endeavor my "4367 Posts" award. What's that like 3.6 posts an hour 365 days a year?

It's "The Other Guy" again with his less than 10 posts...

Realize Brian was simply passing along the information as he has it and understands it, nothing further. Is it incumbent upon him to substantiate it for the benefit of the buyer? You all would say so, but get real. He's telling it as he understood it, not having the benefit of reading each of your 7,642 posts per day before he listed his ad.

Heh, I esp. enjoy the one above suggesting not to mention the MM name in the ad... and you're calling Brian unscrupulous? Genius.

Also realize while some of the Highest Esteemed Gentlemen on this board chimed in about it so have a few real assclowns, and no one likes their name disparaged. You start slandering for the sake of fellating all the Columbo wannabe's here and you're going to piss someone off - and you're going to hear about it. Pointing out to Brian that it is more likely a 3.5L than a 3.6L could have been achieved in an entirely different manner but what's done is done.

Regardless... many missed the entire point. You don't like it don't buy it. You'd be missing out on a terrific car, but maybe that's a good thing. It certainly is too much car for many. But don't start accusing people w/o having a clue.

Who am I? Just a car guy, professional, father, and friend who stands up for friends and who happened to have driven that car. Not someone with some ambiguously gay "sreen name" (what's with that), overly proficient with the use of "emoticon" smileys (c'mon now how old are we), and that likes to jump on the bandwagon for sake of swinging from the nads of Esteemed Gentlemen.

I'm sure there are some quality gents here but there sure seems a lion's share of real tools. Least it's easy to see which is which without much effort. I'll be delisting now so rest easy. Back to reality, and a life without smileys...

By the personal attacks you have done nothing but lower yourself.

This is pathetic

I'm quite enjoying it actually.

Even when your friends are FOS.

Flame on *********.

rjp

http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/yltype.gif

this is me..i are a smiley in fact..
SmileWavy

This is definitely becoming more amusing than the gererator thread....

I did not suggest to leave out mention of the MM work. Perhaps I did not express myself clearly enough for you, but the intent of my statement was that I doubt the seller will gain anything useful from our "discussion" other than learning that mere mention of MM is a bad sales call.

I can type slower if that would help you....

Still have popcorn in hand.......dead horses are fun.

Hmmm - let me get out the slide rule.

I think your math is wrong: 4367 posts equates to about 12 posts a day for a 365 day year - or one every two hours (or, to put it another way 0.5 posts an hour).

Now, that is assuming that:

a) The person doing the posting is logged on that often

and

...wait; who cares? I guess your (somewhat limp wristed) attempt at comedy was to crack wise on the number of posts some of the members have racked up.

Yikes - there's a stretch. Maybe you should poke fun at screen names next.

Oh - nm, I see you did already.

Wow - how do I become a professional father? I manage to have three kids and a career - as well as work on my car, drink beer, BS with my friends and have a million other hobbies. Oh, and I have a wife too! Yay for me!

I will give you props for the 'nads' remark.

'sides, you probably only drink light beer anyway :D ;) :p SmileWavy

EDIT: And yes, before you go even more ballastic, I did see the comma between father and professional - it's more fun to ignore it.

Guys, c'mon, he's not going to respond. He's better than us, and logged off. He was gracious enough to describe all the wonderful things that he does with his time, it's far too precious to say, join a website just for the half-assed defense of his friend only to make things worse. Fortunately the high traffic of Pelican has guaranteed that between him and his cohorts he has managed to scare away at least a few potential buyers, aint karma a *****?