Who should be banned is the lame driver who lost control of his car on a straight, and the genious who gridded the cars right by the track.

That is what I'm talking 'bout!

Pretty common, people seem to find the ditch infield coming out of 9 at big Willow this way, I have also witnessed a WRX come into 1 Buttonwillow, counterclockwise, get two wheels off and slam into the wall on the outside of the track (near fence/grandstands). I think what is happening is the car is looking for traction, since the wheels in dirt cannot get traction the wheels still on the track hook up, launching the car in an unintended direction.

Solution?: Get off gas and drive straight, do not over compensate.

edit: More I think about it the more I wonder who the hell allowed the cars to be out there. This scenario must have happened before, sans cars parked in infield...I blame the track organizers or administrators.

A couple of points:

I have run Pocono East before. Where the EVO went off is just before the right hand kink on the front straight. It's not much of a kink, so you don't need to be that far on the edge of the track. Actually, he should have already started his approach towards the kink. And it seems to me that it was the classic "two wheels off - fight to get back on track - hook it over to the other side" move.

Apparently, many clubs stage in that same position on the Pocono East Course, when running counter-clockwise. I am sure that practice will change. I've never personally seen this, but that's what I've been told.

As for IFLYSOLO:

The Audi driver (the one who was video taking it) had no business to stop there. He should have driven past the accident, carefully through the debris on the track, and watched the next flagging station for instructions. Stopping where he did put him in more jeopardy - when something like that happens, especially in novice run groups, people's reactions are unpredictable. Though it is a flat course, there is a pretty long blind corner as you approach that straight - folks who are driving 'cone to cone' or 'turn-in to apex to exit' aren't used to looking far enough ahead on the track. A startled driver could have easily collected the Audi. The fact that he didn't pay attention to his instructor is wrong. However...

As for the instructor:

- She didn't have control of the car, or its driver. Yes, there are drivers who simply do not obey their instructor. But there are different ways of communicting - perhaps there was a communication issue between them. Sometimes instructors don't want to upset their student. But sometimes they need to be spoken to firmly. It appears that the instructor was a bit undecided (hence the moving of the steering wheel one way, and then the other). Can't do that - it's like showing a vicious dog you're afraid. :eek:
- IMHO, she had no business tugging at the steering wheel. I know some instructors do this, but I really don't like that - even if the car is going slowly - it confuses the whole "who's driving" idea - if the instructor wants to use the steering wheel, then said instructor should be sitting in the seat that's directly behind the steering wheel.

Fortunately, no one was hurt in this incident, which is amazing since the cars were in the staging line. Sheet metal can be unbent more easily than human flesh and bones can...
-Z-man.

I agree. The guy's a dweeb, the instructor can't make up her mind what to do and it's a good thing no one was standing too close to those gridded cars.

Guys, I seen some people do some (to me) incredibly stupid things and not even on race tracks but when they had the chance to make a considered choice, this ain't it. He could have just stopped on the track - then he would truly be dangerous. Only time will tell if he is a habitual loser (and maybe he is).

Here is a post from the instructor who was in the Audi "cam car"
So the driver of the Audi was totally disregarding his instructor- which if you checked out his line prior to the wreck- should not be surprising...

Steve, are you a PCA or other instructor?

Widebutty, now would be a good time to post your crash video...the one where you lifted mid corner and slammed that dude's Porsh.

:D

No, not yet. I was just surprised you were the 4th person to sign that...

I agree the guy has no business on or near a track, however.

Well, I had a student like that once, wouldn't listen to anything, just ignored everything you told him, and that takes the fun out of instructing. Everyone who instructs does it because they enjoy it, I mean really, 2 students then your own track time (and taking the students out with you) sign offs for other instructors can be a lot of work, and typically only corporate events pay, so we a paying to play, and if something "happens", well that is the risk you take, no matter what seat you are in, so when a clown like that (who is reported to brag on the sites about his speeding tickets) do something that he was told over & over not to do, and puts "you" at risk, well, it pisses me off, as it is people like that run off some instructors. You see it in a whole different light when you have been in the car with a guy like that. One more thing, a guy who posted on the board where I found this, telling everyone that mr audi boy was a good guy so we shouldn't be so hard on him and then the audi boy's buddy stated that he (the buddy posting) has no interested in track events, he does his racing on the street:rolleyes: to which I replied that I look forward seeing the crashed pix of his car on the net:D

My hat is off to ANYONE who gets in that right seat to instruct. You have no clue if your in for a fun day or a day of terror. I have only done 5 track days total and recognized right away that guy was out of line. Expecially once I put the sound on and saw he removed the in car sound of her protesting his actions.

If I disagree with my instructor, it does happen, if I am not in danger I will do what he says, after that session I would simply ask for a different instructor. Sometimes 2 people just do not sync.

There's another shorter clip out there of the same driver executing turns so badly, you wonder how he was able to drive to the track. Those are the kinds of videos you destroy.

It wasn't lifting that caused the problem - I have enough tread and downforce to handle that; it was my inexperience (my 2nd wheel-to-wheel race) and panic-braking that caused the crash

It can be difficult to 'reel' a student in. Recently, I was instructing a student in the rain. For about three laps, exiting every corner, he was getting the back end really, really loose. He was simply getting on the throttle too early, too hard. I tried to explain it to him, but he simply wasn't 'getting it.' That is when the instructor has opportunities to improve their communication skills. He finally 'got it' when I said this: "If you keep doing that, you are going to hurt your car." That hit home, and he changed his driving on the next turn.

Students respond to different inputs. Some take better to visual inputs. ("Look for the exit point." "See how the car is positioned here?" ...etc) Others are kinesthetic learners. ("Can you feel how the car is handling through that turn?" "Did you feel the back end trying to come around in the corner?" ) Others learn by watching, and still others learn by doing, and so on. Some like more verbal communication, others like less. Some like step-by-step instruction from turn-in, apex, exit, while others prefer comments before or after the turn. If an instructor taps into how the student learns, and can sync up with that type of learning/teaching, then things go much easier for both the student and the instructor. That, IMHO is the most essential element of instructing - it's not how well the instructor drives, or how well he knows the track - it is how effectively he can communicate to his student.

Regarding Michelle, the instructor in the vid - had she exhausted all the methods of communication prior to grabbing the steering wheel, I can understand why she may have resorted to that action, given her frustration. But I seriously doubt that she used all the other tools in her pocket to get the guy to listen to her.

BTW: It is my understanding that the guy video taping was kicked out of an event at The Glen the Monday after the Pocono event. He and the EVO driver who wrecked are friends, and that is why he stopped and continued to 'roll tape.'

-Z.

You are correct Z, and I have had pretty good luck to only have had one of those types (total idiot) of students over the years. Half of the fun is "reeling" them in, unless they are complete bone heads!! I have been known to give them just enough rope to either expand to the next level or hang them selves. I have also had to take over other instructors "OOC" (out of control) students, something about "if they are on the edge, put them with some one who went over long agohttp://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/nuts.gif

Panic braking would suggest lifting and braking. No offense, we have all been there.

http://www.funkyfridge.com/shop/images/AB-BP-24818.jpg

Just playing, Thom...I have to take any cheap shot I can, you are a liberat.:D

Further proof that he is senseless.

I still blame the track and the event organizers. Cars in the infield?...I have never seen such a thing, unless they crashed or went off track.

Actually, that's not the infield, Mul, they were parked on regular entry onto the track. However, they should not have been so close to the track.

Lemme get a track map...stay tuned for details...

This should clear things up a bit:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1147363323.jpg

-Z.

Z...It happened. There, in my estimation, should never be cars not racing, or cleaning up debris when cars are stopped, in the track area...They should at very least be behind some type of barrier. You expect the unexpected and always plan for the worst on a track.