Schu(Michael)... tries something new

[Owain]

Originally posted by scottmandue
I honesty don't know... where would MS would have started if this had not happened? In the first two rows? Does MS have time to figure all this out while whipping around in an F1 car and come up with the crafty idea of "I will just park it in this corner and slow everybody down"? Didn't he run the risk of having someone hit him as they came around the corner?

At the time that he did it Alonso was working on a lap that was faster than MS's fastest, so he probably would have been at best 2nd. It's very difficult to pass at Monaco and it's possible that if he started behind Alonso he wouldn't have been able to get past during the race, thereby leaving him further behind in the championship. Look at Imola last year, another circuit that is difficult to pass on, where Schumacher in a faster car still couldn't get past Alonso. On these types of circuits if the person in the front doesn't make a mistake then the driver behind has very little chance of actually getting by.

And don't kid yourself: modern racing isn't just about driving as fast as you can. A lot of it is strategy. MS knows where he is in relation to his rivals at all times. He wouldn't be as successful as he is if he didn't.

I don't think that he decided to park the car there before he started into the corner. After he'd already lost the time with the bobble at turn-in it was the ONLY thing he could do to thwart Alonso's lap and keep pole. To me it even looks like he changes his mind about the exercise part way through before re-committing or finding it was already to late.

[nostatic]

I think Owain is spot on. MS is one of the smartest guys on the grid...he wants to know all the data, and seems to be very good at making quick decisions that make all the difference. He was getting intermediate times...he knew he wasn't on a flyer that lap and that he would not get another one. He also knew that Alonso likely was on one. Once he screwed the pooch, I think he gave up on it, then thought better of it, but then couldn't do much of anything. So maybe it wasn't a full-deliberate maneuver, but at some point he thought "screw it, I'll just sit."

I don't know about you guys but I've had thoughts like that in the middle of competition...stretch the rules to get an advantage. And sometimes start something then think better of it. Part of being human...

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by nostatic
. Once he screwed the pooch, I think he gave up on it, then thought better of it, but then couldn't do much of anything. So maybe it wasn't a full-deliberate maneuver, but at some point he thought "screw it, I'll just sit."

I don't know about you guys but I've had thoughts like that in the middle of competition...stretch the rules to get an advantage. And sometimes start something then think better of it. Part of being human...

Originally posted by Owain

I don't think that he decided to park the car there before he started into the corner. After he'd already lost the time with the bobble at turn-in it was the ONLY thing he could do to thwart Alonso's lap and keep pole. To me it even looks like he changes his mind about the exercise part way through before re-committing or finding it was already to late.

I would have to agree with you guys on those points MS did screw up, problem being the press, drivers, etc. whooped this up like the evil MS plotted this all out before he sat down in the car (see the title of this thread).

It's all over and done with and no point at crying over spilled champaign... however it sure would have been interesting to watch Alonso and MS duke it out on the streets of Monaco instead of the let's chase Alonso show.

[Owain]

Originally posted by scottmandue
I would have to agree with you guys on those points MS did screw up, problem being the press, drivers, etc. whooped this up like the evil MS plotted this all out before he sat down in the car (see the title of this thread).

I disagree. I think he got what he deserved. What he did was spoil the final qualifying laps of all the other drivers behind him in that session. That's inexcusable and very unsportsmanlike. It doesn't really matter when he decided to do it, he still did it.

What if you were Alonso? He ended up with pole, but he could have had it legitimately if he had been able to finish his lap and could have celebrated the fact with his team and his fans. You should have seen him in the post-quali press conference, 8 hours before MS was sent to the back of the grid. He was very disapointed, looked like he was having a lot of trouble sitting beside MS while MS sheepishly talked about not being able to select reverse or some such crap.

But he wasn't the only victim of the manouver. What if you were one of the drivers who ended up grided behind Barichello? Maybe you were on a lap that would have put you in front of him on the grid, but in the end you had to be behind him. Did you notice the huge train of faster cars behind his fuel-heavy car for the first half of the race, losing time and falling away from a chance of staying with the front pack all because they had no chance to get past him?

What the whole thing does, though, is expose the problems with the current qualifying format. Hopefully it'll hurry along the planned/proposed changes.

[artplumber]

Originally posted by Randy W
Peter, Senna's battles with Prost are legendary. As teammates in 1989, Prost and Senna dueled into the last race of the season at Suzuka. Prost, refusing to yield when Senna attempted to pass, took out both cars and won the title. The very next year, on competing teams, the duo again raced for the title in the season's last race at Suzuka. This time, it was Senna who took out Prost and claimed the title. Senna said at that time his crash into Prost in 1990 at the first corner was an "accident", but later was man enough to admit it was a deliberate payback. Senna was headstrong, and like Shumacher was willing to win at all costs. He was also a genuine, passionate human being, and one of the best qualifying drivers and car control drivers (if not the best) of all time. His flaw was his unwillingness to admit he was wrong

Um, Randy, I am aware of these incidents. MS isn't really trying to payback is he? His "comings together" were pure and simple "if I can't beat you fairly, I'll try to play chicken or take you out". He even did this to his then teammate Barrichello. Prost was a "pr ck" who was PO'ed that the new guy was better than he was. Hence, the bumping and grinding. The subsequent coming together was Senna's way of saying "you want to bump and grind....let's play". I would hardly class the adversarial attitude shared between Senna & Prost in the same light as Schu's penchant for using his car as a weapon with many others.

BTW I am never wrong.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by artplumber
Schu's penchant for using his car as a weapon with many others.


BTW I am never wrong.

oh yeah? wanna race?

[911 in SC]

Originally posted by scottmandue
I honesty don't know... where would MS would have started if this had not happened? In the first two rows? Does MS have time to figure all this out while whipping around in an F1 car and come up with the crafty idea of "I will just park it in this corner and slow everybody down"? Didn't he run the risk of having someone hit him as they came around the corner?

I think MS had plenty of 'time' to think this through. Remember, he is one of the most seasoned F1 drivers out there, and driving an F1 car for him is like us driving our cars on the street daily. He is certainly that good (but that doesn't mean I have to like him ), and is fully aware of everything going on around him at all times when he is racing. I've never said that MS is a bad driver. In fact, the contrary. I believe he is one of the best drivers ever in F1 history. He can't stand to lose, period. That's not to say that everyone driving in F1 can stand to lose. They are all the 'cream of the crop' or else they wouldn't be in F1.

He also knew that everyone behind him was trying to turn the best lap in that they could. He knew that they would do everything in their power to not come in contact with him. That's what all of the yellow flags were waving for. These drivers reaction times are the best in the business. Period. He also knew that he would have a very hard time passing FA if he qualified in front of him. He's had a hard time passing FA several times this year. I'm not saying FA is a better driver.

With all of that said, I think next year will be totally different. One of the main reasons is the 'one tire' deal. Everyone will be on the same tires, and frankly, I believe that is going to hurt all of the Michelin teams. I don't think Bridgestone's are 'the tire to have'. MS and Ferrari have done a heck of a job with the tires they run. I'm glad he's not on Michelins, as I think he would have run the gamut on the field if he had. Of course, that's just my opinion though...pure speculation. We'll all have to wait and see next year.

[artplumber]

Originally posted by nostatic
oh yeah? wanna race?

Todd since you are in So Cal, I think we ought to race to Houston (half way between). You must start at 16:30 from the Santa Monica pier!

EDIT: I will of course start at the same time, 19:30, from FL. We could always try Dallas (& get Lube to change the oil in both cars).

[Owain]

Originally posted by artplumber
BTW I am never wrong.

Are you my brother?

BTW, I agree about Senna. He was quite a principled competitor and would take his advantages where he could get them, rather than manufacturing them with reckless driving.

I remember the story (I don't know how true it is) about how, in the days when Goodyear was the sole tire supplier, they would coat the tire molds with some goo as a release agent, ending up with that goo on the finished tires. At some point in the early 90's they changed their methods such that this goo didn't end up on the tires anymore and the Goodyear rep got a visit from Senna. Senna smilingly told him that they had just taken away one of his advantages. He had figured out how to deal with this slippery stuff for the first lap after a mid-race tire change and was able to maximise the out-lap time, while he had observed his competitors (and team-mates) would (figuritively) tip-toe around the out-lap while the goo wore off.

RIP the Meister.

[Randy W]

Peter, you are right of course.

Senna was much more principaled than Schumacher - that's what I was trying to say.

[Tervuren]

Has Shumacher gone into another driver's trailer and tried to beat the daylights out of him?

Senna always give me a very mixed impression, brilliant at times, and others just plain "What?"

[tchanson]

Originally posted by Tervuren
Has Shumacher gone into another driver's trailer and tried to beat the daylights out of him?

Of course not. Marlboro and DVAG would never allow such a messy display of emotion.

As the subsequent years have proven, Irvine truly needed to be beat about the head and neck. Frequently.

Senna was a man ahead of his time in that regard...



Tim